Rhavar [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2018-01-08 📝 Original message:I think you're ...
📅 Original date posted:2018-01-08
📝 Original message:I think you're under-appreciating how useful the "plausible deniability". Someone I know was (solo) traveling to the United States when a border agent asked her to unlocked her phone; thumbed through her apps, ended up finding tinder and went through all her recent conversations to make sure she wasn't involved in any "pay for sex things".
In the same light, I travel frequently and constantly have my trezor on me. If I am asked to unlock it, I will have no problems doing so (as refusal will no doubt lead to deportation) and showing my personal wallet (which sadly hasn't had much use since fees became ridiculous).
And by doing so, I won't be revealing the half a dozen other accounts I keep. Which is the other big of such "plausible deniability" schemes, they make it trivial to create multiple wallets that are all firewalled away from each other.
I will hypothesize that if one of my wallets was for something like buying stuff on dark markets there's simply no way anyone is going to ever know way you're going to be to tell short of some movie-plot level police effort.
-Ryan
>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Satoshilabs secret shared private key scheme
>Local Time: January 8, 2018 5:47 PM
>UTC Time: January 8, 2018 11:47 PM
>From: bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>To: Pavol Rusnak <stick at satoshilabs.com>
>Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>
>
>On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 12:39 PM, Pavol Rusnak stick at satoshilabs.com wrote:
>>On 08/01/18 05:22, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
>>>>https://github.com/satoshilabs/slips/blob/master/slip-0039.md
>>>>Hey Gregory!
>>Thanks for looking into the scheme. I appreciate your time!
>>>This specification forces the key being used through a one way
>>> function, -- so you cannot take a pre-existing key and encode it with
>>> this scheme.
>>>Originally, we used a bi-directional function to be able to encode and
>> decode the key in both directions using the passphrase. We stretched the
>> passphrase using KDF and then applied AES or other symmetric cipher
>>We found the following (theoretical) problem:
>>If an attacker has knowledge of few words from the beginning of shares,
>> they are able to reconstruct the beginning of the master secret and if
>> the size of the reconstruced master secret is bigger then the cipher
>> blocksize (for block ciphers; for stream ciphers 1 bit is enough), then
>> they can reconstruct the beginning of the seed.
>>Can you find a scheme which does not have this problem? Or you think
>> this problem is not worth solving?
>>
> You can use a large block cipher. E.g. CMC cipher mode.
>
> Though I am doubtful that this is a very relevant concern: What
> consequence is it if someone with partial access to more than a
> threshold of the shares can recover part of the seed? This doesn't
> seem like a very interesting threat. A large block mode would be
> more complete, but this isn't something that would keep me up at night
> in the slightest.
>
> Perhaps I'm missing something, -- but the only real attack I see here
> is that a enduser mistakenly shows the first or couple words of all
> their shares on national television or what not... but doing so would
> not really harm their security unless they showed almost all of them,
> and in that case an attacker could simply search the remaining couple
> words.
>
> Also, if we are going to assume that users will leak parts, the
> mnemonic encoding ends up being pretty bad... since just leaking a
> letter or two of each word would quite likely give the whole thing
> away.
>
> In any case, to whatever extent partial leaks are a concern, using a
> large block cipher would be the obvious approach.
>
>>Yes. We want this to be possible to be computed on TREZOR-like devices
>> on boot, similarly how we compute BIP39 on boot right now.
>>
> Under this constraint it might be arguably to just eliminate the KDF.
> I think it provides false security and makes the implementation much
> more complicated.
>
> Have you considered using blind host-delegated KDFs, where the KDF
> runs on the user's computer instead of the hardware wallet, but the
> computer doesn't learn anything about they keys?
>
>>Again, this is by design and it is main point why plausible deniability
>> is achieved both in BIP39 and SLIP39. If we used a different
>> construction we'd loose plausible deniability.
>>
> I don't believe you can justify this design decision with any kind of
> rigorous threat model.
>
> The probability that a user loses funds because they have at some
> point recovered with the wrong key and don't know it would almost
> certainly dwarf the probability that the user face some kind of
> movie-plot threat where someone is attempting to forcibly extract a
> key and yet somehow has no information about the user's actual
> wallet-- through, for example, leaked data on the users computers, the
> users past payments to online accounts, or through a compromise or
> lawful order to satoshilab's web service which the users send private
> information to-- which would allow them to determine the key they were
> given was not correct.
>
> But even there, given the weak level of false input rejection that you
> have used (16 bits), it would be fairly straight forward to grind out
> an alternative passphrase that also passed the test. Might that not
> make for a better compromise?
>
> Another thing to consider is that the main advantage of SSS over
> ordinary computational secret sharing is that it's possible to
> generate alternative shares to an sub-threshold set of primary shares
> that decodes to arbitrarily selected alternative data-- but it seems
> the proposal makes no use of this fact.
>
>>>It
>>> is again, unversioned-- so it kinda of seems like it is intentionally
>>> constructed in a way that will prevent interoperable use, since the
>>> lack of versioning was a primary complaint from other perspective
>>> users. Of course, it fine if you want to make a trezor only thing,
>>> but why bother BIPing something that was not intended for
>>> interoperability? Even for a single vendor spec the lack of
>>> versioning seems to make things harder to support new key-related
>>> features such as segwit.
>>>This is argument I keep having all the time.
>>Suppose we'd introduce a version to encode PBKDF2 rounds or even
>> different KDFs. We'll end up with different SLIP39 mnemonics, but they
>> will not be compatible among implementations (because TREZOR can only up
>> to 100.000 rounds of PBKDF2 and does not support Argon2 at all, while
>> other desktop implementation would rather use memory-hard Argon2).
>>My gut feeling is that this would lead to WORSE interoperability, not
>> better. Look at BIP32 for example. There are lots of wallet that claim
>> they are BIP32 compatible, but in reality they use different paths, so
>> they are not compatible. BIP32 is a good standard, but in reality
>> "BIP32-compatible" does not mean anything, whereas when you say the
>> wallet is "BIP44-compatible" you can be sure the migration path works.
>>
> The end result is no better-- I think. If you compromise
> functionality or security (e.g. pretextual KDF) because your product
> doesn't yet support -- say, aggregate signatures-- or won't ever
> support a strong KDF; then other software will just not be
> interoperable. In cases were you won't ever support it, that doesn't
> matter-- but presumably you would later support new signature styles
> and the loss of interoperability would potentially be gratitious.
>
> That said, I'm generally skeptical of key interoperability to begin
> with. Wallets can't share keys unless their functionality is
> identical, half-interoperability can lead to funds loss. Identical
> functionality would mean constraining to the least common denominator.
>
> But even if we exclude cross vendor interoperability entirely,
> wouldn't you want your next version of your firmware to be able to
> support new and old key styles (e.g. aggregate signatures vs plain
> segwit) without having to define a whole new encoding?
>
>>Originally, we wanted to use 16-bit of CRC32 for checksum, but after the
>> discussion with Daan Sprenkels we were suggested to change this for
>> cryptographically strong function. The argument was that CRC32 contains
>> less entropy and mixing high-entropy data (secret) with low-entropy data
>> (checksum) is not a good idea.
>>
> That sounds like a kind of hand-wave and cargo cult argument-- pleas
> be more specific, because that just sounds like amateur block cipher
> design.
>
> There isn't any difference in "entropy" in either of these cases.
>
> As an aside, using "n bits of a longer CRC" usually results in a low
> quality code for error detection similar to using a cryptographic
> hash.
>
>>Also, there is an argument between a checksum and ECC. We discussed that
>> ECC might not be a good idea, because it helps the attacker to compute
>> missing information, while we only want to check for integrity. Also the
>>
> Not meaningfully more than the truncated cryptographic hash.
>
> The best possible code of that length would allow you to list decode
> to around two errors with a lot of computation.
> With the cryptographic hash the attacker need only check the 2^28
> two-error candidates to do exactly the same thing.
>
> So the attacker there is no real difference-- he can brute force
> search to the same radius as correction would allow, but for the
> honest users and software the probability of undetected error is
> greater. Similarly, while 2^28 operations is nothing to an attacker,
> if user software wants to use the correction for error hinting,
> running a hash 2^28 times would lead to a somewhat unfriendly user
> experience so non-attack tools would be pretty unlikely to implement
> it.
>
>bitcoin-dev mailing list
>bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
📝 Original message:I think you're under-appreciating how useful the "plausible deniability". Someone I know was (solo) traveling to the United States when a border agent asked her to unlocked her phone; thumbed through her apps, ended up finding tinder and went through all her recent conversations to make sure she wasn't involved in any "pay for sex things".
In the same light, I travel frequently and constantly have my trezor on me. If I am asked to unlock it, I will have no problems doing so (as refusal will no doubt lead to deportation) and showing my personal wallet (which sadly hasn't had much use since fees became ridiculous).
And by doing so, I won't be revealing the half a dozen other accounts I keep. Which is the other big of such "plausible deniability" schemes, they make it trivial to create multiple wallets that are all firewalled away from each other.
I will hypothesize that if one of my wallets was for something like buying stuff on dark markets there's simply no way anyone is going to ever know way you're going to be to tell short of some movie-plot level police effort.
-Ryan
>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Satoshilabs secret shared private key scheme
>Local Time: January 8, 2018 5:47 PM
>UTC Time: January 8, 2018 11:47 PM
>From: bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>To: Pavol Rusnak <stick at satoshilabs.com>
>Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>
>
>On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 12:39 PM, Pavol Rusnak stick at satoshilabs.com wrote:
>>On 08/01/18 05:22, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
>>>>https://github.com/satoshilabs/slips/blob/master/slip-0039.md
>>>>Hey Gregory!
>>Thanks for looking into the scheme. I appreciate your time!
>>>This specification forces the key being used through a one way
>>> function, -- so you cannot take a pre-existing key and encode it with
>>> this scheme.
>>>Originally, we used a bi-directional function to be able to encode and
>> decode the key in both directions using the passphrase. We stretched the
>> passphrase using KDF and then applied AES or other symmetric cipher
>>We found the following (theoretical) problem:
>>If an attacker has knowledge of few words from the beginning of shares,
>> they are able to reconstruct the beginning of the master secret and if
>> the size of the reconstruced master secret is bigger then the cipher
>> blocksize (for block ciphers; for stream ciphers 1 bit is enough), then
>> they can reconstruct the beginning of the seed.
>>Can you find a scheme which does not have this problem? Or you think
>> this problem is not worth solving?
>>
> You can use a large block cipher. E.g. CMC cipher mode.
>
> Though I am doubtful that this is a very relevant concern: What
> consequence is it if someone with partial access to more than a
> threshold of the shares can recover part of the seed? This doesn't
> seem like a very interesting threat. A large block mode would be
> more complete, but this isn't something that would keep me up at night
> in the slightest.
>
> Perhaps I'm missing something, -- but the only real attack I see here
> is that a enduser mistakenly shows the first or couple words of all
> their shares on national television or what not... but doing so would
> not really harm their security unless they showed almost all of them,
> and in that case an attacker could simply search the remaining couple
> words.
>
> Also, if we are going to assume that users will leak parts, the
> mnemonic encoding ends up being pretty bad... since just leaking a
> letter or two of each word would quite likely give the whole thing
> away.
>
> In any case, to whatever extent partial leaks are a concern, using a
> large block cipher would be the obvious approach.
>
>>Yes. We want this to be possible to be computed on TREZOR-like devices
>> on boot, similarly how we compute BIP39 on boot right now.
>>
> Under this constraint it might be arguably to just eliminate the KDF.
> I think it provides false security and makes the implementation much
> more complicated.
>
> Have you considered using blind host-delegated KDFs, where the KDF
> runs on the user's computer instead of the hardware wallet, but the
> computer doesn't learn anything about they keys?
>
>>Again, this is by design and it is main point why plausible deniability
>> is achieved both in BIP39 and SLIP39. If we used a different
>> construction we'd loose plausible deniability.
>>
> I don't believe you can justify this design decision with any kind of
> rigorous threat model.
>
> The probability that a user loses funds because they have at some
> point recovered with the wrong key and don't know it would almost
> certainly dwarf the probability that the user face some kind of
> movie-plot threat where someone is attempting to forcibly extract a
> key and yet somehow has no information about the user's actual
> wallet-- through, for example, leaked data on the users computers, the
> users past payments to online accounts, or through a compromise or
> lawful order to satoshilab's web service which the users send private
> information to-- which would allow them to determine the key they were
> given was not correct.
>
> But even there, given the weak level of false input rejection that you
> have used (16 bits), it would be fairly straight forward to grind out
> an alternative passphrase that also passed the test. Might that not
> make for a better compromise?
>
> Another thing to consider is that the main advantage of SSS over
> ordinary computational secret sharing is that it's possible to
> generate alternative shares to an sub-threshold set of primary shares
> that decodes to arbitrarily selected alternative data-- but it seems
> the proposal makes no use of this fact.
>
>>>It
>>> is again, unversioned-- so it kinda of seems like it is intentionally
>>> constructed in a way that will prevent interoperable use, since the
>>> lack of versioning was a primary complaint from other perspective
>>> users. Of course, it fine if you want to make a trezor only thing,
>>> but why bother BIPing something that was not intended for
>>> interoperability? Even for a single vendor spec the lack of
>>> versioning seems to make things harder to support new key-related
>>> features such as segwit.
>>>This is argument I keep having all the time.
>>Suppose we'd introduce a version to encode PBKDF2 rounds or even
>> different KDFs. We'll end up with different SLIP39 mnemonics, but they
>> will not be compatible among implementations (because TREZOR can only up
>> to 100.000 rounds of PBKDF2 and does not support Argon2 at all, while
>> other desktop implementation would rather use memory-hard Argon2).
>>My gut feeling is that this would lead to WORSE interoperability, not
>> better. Look at BIP32 for example. There are lots of wallet that claim
>> they are BIP32 compatible, but in reality they use different paths, so
>> they are not compatible. BIP32 is a good standard, but in reality
>> "BIP32-compatible" does not mean anything, whereas when you say the
>> wallet is "BIP44-compatible" you can be sure the migration path works.
>>
> The end result is no better-- I think. If you compromise
> functionality or security (e.g. pretextual KDF) because your product
> doesn't yet support -- say, aggregate signatures-- or won't ever
> support a strong KDF; then other software will just not be
> interoperable. In cases were you won't ever support it, that doesn't
> matter-- but presumably you would later support new signature styles
> and the loss of interoperability would potentially be gratitious.
>
> That said, I'm generally skeptical of key interoperability to begin
> with. Wallets can't share keys unless their functionality is
> identical, half-interoperability can lead to funds loss. Identical
> functionality would mean constraining to the least common denominator.
>
> But even if we exclude cross vendor interoperability entirely,
> wouldn't you want your next version of your firmware to be able to
> support new and old key styles (e.g. aggregate signatures vs plain
> segwit) without having to define a whole new encoding?
>
>>Originally, we wanted to use 16-bit of CRC32 for checksum, but after the
>> discussion with Daan Sprenkels we were suggested to change this for
>> cryptographically strong function. The argument was that CRC32 contains
>> less entropy and mixing high-entropy data (secret) with low-entropy data
>> (checksum) is not a good idea.
>>
> That sounds like a kind of hand-wave and cargo cult argument-- pleas
> be more specific, because that just sounds like amateur block cipher
> design.
>
> There isn't any difference in "entropy" in either of these cases.
>
> As an aside, using "n bits of a longer CRC" usually results in a low
> quality code for error detection similar to using a cryptographic
> hash.
>
>>Also, there is an argument between a checksum and ECC. We discussed that
>> ECC might not be a good idea, because it helps the attacker to compute
>> missing information, while we only want to check for integrity. Also the
>>
> Not meaningfully more than the truncated cryptographic hash.
>
> The best possible code of that length would allow you to list decode
> to around two errors with a lot of computation.
> With the cryptographic hash the attacker need only check the 2^28
> two-error candidates to do exactly the same thing.
>
> So the attacker there is no real difference-- he can brute force
> search to the same radius as correction would allow, but for the
> honest users and software the probability of undetected error is
> greater. Similarly, while 2^28 operations is nothing to an attacker,
> if user software wants to use the correction for error hinting,
> running a hash 2^28 times would lead to a somewhat unfriendly user
> experience so non-attack tools would be pretty unlikely to implement
> it.
>
>bitcoin-dev mailing list
>bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>