Gregory Maxwell [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2018-01-08 📝 Original message:On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at ...
📅 Original date posted:2018-01-08
📝 Original message:On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 12:39 PM, Pavol Rusnak <stick at satoshilabs.com> wrote:
> On 08/01/18 05:22, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
>>> https://github.com/satoshilabs/slips/blob/master/slip-0039.md
>
> Hey Gregory!
>
> Thanks for looking into the scheme. I appreciate your time!
>
>> This specification forces the key being used through a one way
>> function, -- so you cannot take a pre-existing key and encode it with
>> this scheme.
>
> Originally, we used a bi-directional function to be able to encode and
> decode the key in both directions using the passphrase. We stretched the
> passphrase using KDF and then applied AES or other symmetric cipher
>
> We found the following (theoretical) problem:
>
> If an attacker has knowledge of few words from the beginning of shares,
> they are able to reconstruct the beginning of the master secret and if
> the size of the reconstruced master secret is bigger then the cipher
> blocksize (for block ciphers; for stream ciphers 1 bit is enough), then
> they can reconstruct the beginning of the seed.
>
> Can you find a scheme which does not have this problem? Or you think
> this problem is not worth solving?
You can use a large block cipher. E.g. CMC cipher mode.
Though I am doubtful that this is a very relevant concern: What
consequence is it if someone with partial access to more than a
threshold of the shares can recover part of the seed? This doesn't
seem like a very interesting threat. A large block mode would be
more complete, but this isn't something that would keep me up at night
in the slightest.
Perhaps I'm missing something, -- but the only real attack I see here
is that a enduser mistakenly shows the first or couple words of all
their shares on national television or what not... but doing so would
not really harm their security unless they showed almost all of them,
and in that case an attacker could simply search the remaining couple
words.
Also, if we are going to assume that users will leak parts, the
mnemonic encoding ends up being pretty bad... since just leaking a
letter or two of each word would quite likely give the whole thing
away.
In any case, to whatever extent partial leaks are a concern, using a
large block cipher would be the obvious approach.
> Yes. We want this to be possible to be computed on TREZOR-like devices
> on boot, similarly how we compute BIP39 on boot right now.
Under this constraint it might be arguably to just eliminate the KDF.
I think it provides false security and makes the implementation much
more complicated.
Have you considered using blind host-delegated KDFs, where the KDF
runs on the user's computer instead of the hardware wallet, but the
computer doesn't learn anything about they keys?
> Again, this is by design and it is main point why plausible deniability
> is achieved both in BIP39 and SLIP39. If we used a different
> construction we'd loose plausible deniability.
I don't believe you can justify this design decision with any kind of
rigorous threat model.
The probability that a user loses funds because they have at some
point recovered with the wrong key and don't know it would almost
certainly dwarf the probability that the user face some kind of
movie-plot threat where someone is attempting to forcibly extract a
key and yet somehow has no information about the user's actual
wallet-- through, for example, leaked data on the users computers, the
users past payments to online accounts, or through a compromise or
lawful order to satoshilab's web service which the users send private
information to-- which would allow them to determine the key they were
given was not correct.
But even there, given the weak level of false input rejection that you
have used (16 bits), it would be fairly straight forward to grind out
an alternative passphrase that also passed the test. Might that not
make for a better compromise?
Another thing to consider is that the main advantage of SSS over
ordinary computational secret sharing is that it's possible to
generate alternative shares to an sub-threshold set of primary shares
that decodes to arbitrarily selected alternative data-- but it seems
the proposal makes no use of this fact.
>> It
>> is again, unversioned-- so it kinda of seems like it is intentionally
>> constructed in a way that will prevent interoperable use, since the
>> lack of versioning was a primary complaint from other perspective
>> users. Of course, it fine if you want to make a trezor only thing,
>> but why bother BIPing something that was not intended for
>> interoperability? Even for a single vendor spec the lack of
>> versioning seems to make things harder to support new key-related
>> features such as segwit.
>
> This is argument I keep having all the time.
>
> Suppose we'd introduce a version to encode PBKDF2 rounds or even
> different KDFs. We'll end up with different SLIP39 mnemonics, but they
> will not be compatible among implementations (because TREZOR can only up
> to 100.000 rounds of PBKDF2 and does not support Argon2 at all, while
> other desktop implementation would rather use memory-hard Argon2).
>
> My gut feeling is that this would lead to WORSE interoperability, not
> better. Look at BIP32 for example. There are lots of wallet that claim
> they are BIP32 compatible, but in reality they use different paths, so
> they are not compatible. BIP32 is a good standard, but in reality
> "BIP32-compatible" does not mean anything, whereas when you say the
> wallet is "BIP44-compatible" you can be sure the migration path works.
The end result is no better-- I think. If you compromise
functionality or security (e.g. pretextual KDF) because your product
doesn't yet support -- say, aggregate signatures-- or won't ever
support a strong KDF; then other software will just not be
interoperable. In cases were you won't ever support it, that doesn't
matter-- but presumably you would later support new signature styles
and the loss of interoperability would potentially be gratitious.
That said, I'm generally skeptical of key interoperability to begin
with. Wallets can't share keys unless their functionality is
identical, half-interoperability can lead to funds loss. Identical
functionality would mean constraining to the least common denominator.
But even if we exclude cross vendor interoperability entirely,
wouldn't you want your next version of your firmware to be able to
support new and old key styles (e.g. aggregate signatures vs plain
segwit) without having to define a whole new encoding?
> Originally, we wanted to use 16-bit of CRC32 for checksum, but after the
> discussion with Daan Sprenkels we were suggested to change this for
> cryptographically strong function. The argument was that CRC32 contains
> less entropy and mixing high-entropy data (secret) with low-entropy data
> (checksum) is not a good idea.
That sounds like a kind of hand-wave and cargo cult argument-- pleas
be more specific, because that just sounds like amateur block cipher
design.
There isn't any difference in "entropy" in either of these cases.
As an aside, using "n bits of a longer CRC" usually results in a low
quality code for error detection similar to using a cryptographic
hash.
> Also, there is an argument between a checksum and ECC. We discussed that
> ECC might not be a good idea, because it helps the attacker to compute
> missing information, while we only want to check for integrity. Also the
Not meaningfully more than the truncated cryptographic hash.
The best possible code of that length would allow you to list decode
to around two errors with a lot of computation.
With the cryptographic hash the attacker need only check the 2^28
two-error candidates to do exactly the same thing.
So the attacker there is no real difference-- he can brute force
search to the same radius as correction would allow, but for the
honest users and software the probability of undetected error is
greater. Similarly, while 2^28 operations is nothing to an attacker,
if user software wants to use the correction for error hinting,
running a hash 2^28 times would lead to a somewhat unfriendly user
experience so non-attack tools would be pretty unlikely to implement
it.
📝 Original message:On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 12:39 PM, Pavol Rusnak <stick at satoshilabs.com> wrote:
> On 08/01/18 05:22, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
>>> https://github.com/satoshilabs/slips/blob/master/slip-0039.md
>
> Hey Gregory!
>
> Thanks for looking into the scheme. I appreciate your time!
>
>> This specification forces the key being used through a one way
>> function, -- so you cannot take a pre-existing key and encode it with
>> this scheme.
>
> Originally, we used a bi-directional function to be able to encode and
> decode the key in both directions using the passphrase. We stretched the
> passphrase using KDF and then applied AES or other symmetric cipher
>
> We found the following (theoretical) problem:
>
> If an attacker has knowledge of few words from the beginning of shares,
> they are able to reconstruct the beginning of the master secret and if
> the size of the reconstruced master secret is bigger then the cipher
> blocksize (for block ciphers; for stream ciphers 1 bit is enough), then
> they can reconstruct the beginning of the seed.
>
> Can you find a scheme which does not have this problem? Or you think
> this problem is not worth solving?
You can use a large block cipher. E.g. CMC cipher mode.
Though I am doubtful that this is a very relevant concern: What
consequence is it if someone with partial access to more than a
threshold of the shares can recover part of the seed? This doesn't
seem like a very interesting threat. A large block mode would be
more complete, but this isn't something that would keep me up at night
in the slightest.
Perhaps I'm missing something, -- but the only real attack I see here
is that a enduser mistakenly shows the first or couple words of all
their shares on national television or what not... but doing so would
not really harm their security unless they showed almost all of them,
and in that case an attacker could simply search the remaining couple
words.
Also, if we are going to assume that users will leak parts, the
mnemonic encoding ends up being pretty bad... since just leaking a
letter or two of each word would quite likely give the whole thing
away.
In any case, to whatever extent partial leaks are a concern, using a
large block cipher would be the obvious approach.
> Yes. We want this to be possible to be computed on TREZOR-like devices
> on boot, similarly how we compute BIP39 on boot right now.
Under this constraint it might be arguably to just eliminate the KDF.
I think it provides false security and makes the implementation much
more complicated.
Have you considered using blind host-delegated KDFs, where the KDF
runs on the user's computer instead of the hardware wallet, but the
computer doesn't learn anything about they keys?
> Again, this is by design and it is main point why plausible deniability
> is achieved both in BIP39 and SLIP39. If we used a different
> construction we'd loose plausible deniability.
I don't believe you can justify this design decision with any kind of
rigorous threat model.
The probability that a user loses funds because they have at some
point recovered with the wrong key and don't know it would almost
certainly dwarf the probability that the user face some kind of
movie-plot threat where someone is attempting to forcibly extract a
key and yet somehow has no information about the user's actual
wallet-- through, for example, leaked data on the users computers, the
users past payments to online accounts, or through a compromise or
lawful order to satoshilab's web service which the users send private
information to-- which would allow them to determine the key they were
given was not correct.
But even there, given the weak level of false input rejection that you
have used (16 bits), it would be fairly straight forward to grind out
an alternative passphrase that also passed the test. Might that not
make for a better compromise?
Another thing to consider is that the main advantage of SSS over
ordinary computational secret sharing is that it's possible to
generate alternative shares to an sub-threshold set of primary shares
that decodes to arbitrarily selected alternative data-- but it seems
the proposal makes no use of this fact.
>> It
>> is again, unversioned-- so it kinda of seems like it is intentionally
>> constructed in a way that will prevent interoperable use, since the
>> lack of versioning was a primary complaint from other perspective
>> users. Of course, it fine if you want to make a trezor only thing,
>> but why bother BIPing something that was not intended for
>> interoperability? Even for a single vendor spec the lack of
>> versioning seems to make things harder to support new key-related
>> features such as segwit.
>
> This is argument I keep having all the time.
>
> Suppose we'd introduce a version to encode PBKDF2 rounds or even
> different KDFs. We'll end up with different SLIP39 mnemonics, but they
> will not be compatible among implementations (because TREZOR can only up
> to 100.000 rounds of PBKDF2 and does not support Argon2 at all, while
> other desktop implementation would rather use memory-hard Argon2).
>
> My gut feeling is that this would lead to WORSE interoperability, not
> better. Look at BIP32 for example. There are lots of wallet that claim
> they are BIP32 compatible, but in reality they use different paths, so
> they are not compatible. BIP32 is a good standard, but in reality
> "BIP32-compatible" does not mean anything, whereas when you say the
> wallet is "BIP44-compatible" you can be sure the migration path works.
The end result is no better-- I think. If you compromise
functionality or security (e.g. pretextual KDF) because your product
doesn't yet support -- say, aggregate signatures-- or won't ever
support a strong KDF; then other software will just not be
interoperable. In cases were you won't ever support it, that doesn't
matter-- but presumably you would later support new signature styles
and the loss of interoperability would potentially be gratitious.
That said, I'm generally skeptical of key interoperability to begin
with. Wallets can't share keys unless their functionality is
identical, half-interoperability can lead to funds loss. Identical
functionality would mean constraining to the least common denominator.
But even if we exclude cross vendor interoperability entirely,
wouldn't you want your next version of your firmware to be able to
support new and old key styles (e.g. aggregate signatures vs plain
segwit) without having to define a whole new encoding?
> Originally, we wanted to use 16-bit of CRC32 for checksum, but after the
> discussion with Daan Sprenkels we were suggested to change this for
> cryptographically strong function. The argument was that CRC32 contains
> less entropy and mixing high-entropy data (secret) with low-entropy data
> (checksum) is not a good idea.
That sounds like a kind of hand-wave and cargo cult argument-- pleas
be more specific, because that just sounds like amateur block cipher
design.
There isn't any difference in "entropy" in either of these cases.
As an aside, using "n bits of a longer CRC" usually results in a low
quality code for error detection similar to using a cryptographic
hash.
> Also, there is an argument between a checksum and ECC. We discussed that
> ECC might not be a good idea, because it helps the attacker to compute
> missing information, while we only want to check for integrity. Also the
Not meaningfully more than the truncated cryptographic hash.
The best possible code of that length would allow you to list decode
to around two errors with a lot of computation.
With the cryptographic hash the attacker need only check the 2^28
two-error candidates to do exactly the same thing.
So the attacker there is no real difference-- he can brute force
search to the same radius as correction would allow, but for the
honest users and software the probability of undetected error is
greater. Similarly, while 2^28 operations is nothing to an attacker,
if user software wants to use the correction for error hinting,
running a hash 2^28 times would lead to a somewhat unfriendly user
experience so non-attack tools would be pretty unlikely to implement
it.