Greg Sanders [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: ๐ Original date posted:2018-01-08 ๐ Original message:Has anyone actually used ...
๐
Original date posted:2018-01-08
๐ Original message:Has anyone actually used the multilingual support in bip39?
If a feature of the standard has not been(widely?) used in years, and isn't
supported in any major wallet(?), it seems indicative it was a mistake to
add it in the first place, since it's a footgun in the making for some poor
sap who can't even read English letters when almost all documentation is
written in English.
On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, ๆจใไธใใใช <kinoshitajona at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> This is very sad.
>>
>> The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English words.
>>
>> I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase (because
>> he kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down "aneter" for
>> "amateur"...
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain
>> processes the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down.
>> Not many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for
>> letter, taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> Defining "everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier to
>> plan for" is not a good way to move forward as a currency.
>>
>
> Well said. Thank you for telling of these experiences. Now please, letโs
> put the shoe on the other foot.
>
> I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrust
> *their own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write this
> downโthen later, type it back in:
>
> ใใใ ใใใ ใใใ ใใใ ใฆใใใ ใใจใ
> ใจใใ ใฏใใ ใใใใพ ใปใใ ใใกใใฃใต ใใใค
>
> (Approximate translation: โWhatever would you do if Bitcoin had been
> invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?โ)
>
> No, wait: That is only a 12-word mnemonic. We are probably talking about
> a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your lifeโs savings on
> your ability to handwrite *this*:
>
> ใซใใ ใใฒใใ ใซใใใ ใฒใใ ใใใใ ใใฎใ ใญใใ ใฏใใใ ใฒใใ
> ใจใใ ใใใใใ ใใชใ ใใชใใช ใซใใใใใใ ใใใ ใใใใ ใฟใใ
> ใธใใ ใใฒใใ ใใใใฒ ใตใใ ใใใ ใใใใใ ใใใพใ
>
> Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own hands?
> No? Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on the
> inverse case.
>
> ----
>
> If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many
> Japanese people know English and other European languages, too. Then think
> of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family and
> friendsโif BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks needed to
> wrestle with the above phrases as their โmnemonicsโ.
>
> In such cases, the phrases cannot be called โmnemonicsโ at all. A
> โmnemonicโ implies aid to memory. Gibberish in a wholly alien writing
> system is much worse even than transcribing pseudorandom hex strings. The
> Japanese man in the quoted story, who wrote โaneterโ for โamateurโ, was not
> dealing with a *mnemonic*: He was using the worldโs most inefficient means
> of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly.
>
> ----
>
> I began this thread with a quite simple request: Is โๆฅๆฌ่ชโ an appropriate
> string for identifying the Japanese language to Japanese users? And what
> of the other strings I posted for other languages?
>
> I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the greatest
> guard against vendor lock-in and stale software: Independent
> implementations. โ I asked, because obviously, I myself do not speak all
> these different languages; and I want to implement them all. *All.*
>
> Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far,
> nobody has squarely addressed the substance of my question.
>
> Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into criticism of
> multi-language support. I opened with a question about other languages,
> and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of โEnglish only!โ
>
> Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever
> implementing any standard of this nature which is artificially restricted
> to English. I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standard
> called โBIP 39โ which has seven non-English wordlists, and four more
> pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621).
>
> I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate for
> use with that standard.
>
> (P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the foregoing. I
> have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed characters. I
> thought of this after I searched for and collected some visually
> fascinating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC... It should go
> without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!)
>
>
> --
> nullius at nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00591B2F307E0C
> Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested:
> 3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG) (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE)
> โโIf youโre not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide.โ
> No! Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.โ โ nullius
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
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๐ Original message:Has anyone actually used the multilingual support in bip39?
If a feature of the standard has not been(widely?) used in years, and isn't
supported in any major wallet(?), it seems indicative it was a mistake to
add it in the first place, since it's a footgun in the making for some poor
sap who can't even read English letters when almost all documentation is
written in English.
On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, ๆจใไธใใใช <kinoshitajona at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> This is very sad.
>>
>> The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English words.
>>
>> I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase (because
>> he kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down "aneter" for
>> "amateur"...
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain
>> processes the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down.
>> Not many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for
>> letter, taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> Defining "everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier to
>> plan for" is not a good way to move forward as a currency.
>>
>
> Well said. Thank you for telling of these experiences. Now please, letโs
> put the shoe on the other foot.
>
> I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrust
> *their own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write this
> downโthen later, type it back in:
>
> ใใใ ใใใ ใใใ ใใใ ใฆใใใ ใใจใ
> ใจใใ ใฏใใ ใใใใพ ใปใใ ใใกใใฃใต ใใใค
>
> (Approximate translation: โWhatever would you do if Bitcoin had been
> invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?โ)
>
> No, wait: That is only a 12-word mnemonic. We are probably talking about
> a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your lifeโs savings on
> your ability to handwrite *this*:
>
> ใซใใ ใใฒใใ ใซใใใ ใฒใใ ใใใใ ใใฎใ ใญใใ ใฏใใใ ใฒใใ
> ใจใใ ใใใใใ ใใชใ ใใชใใช ใซใใใใใใ ใใใ ใใใใ ใฟใใ
> ใธใใ ใใฒใใ ใใใใฒ ใตใใ ใใใ ใใใใใ ใใใพใ
>
> Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own hands?
> No? Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on the
> inverse case.
>
> ----
>
> If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many
> Japanese people know English and other European languages, too. Then think
> of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family and
> friendsโif BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks needed to
> wrestle with the above phrases as their โmnemonicsโ.
>
> In such cases, the phrases cannot be called โmnemonicsโ at all. A
> โmnemonicโ implies aid to memory. Gibberish in a wholly alien writing
> system is much worse even than transcribing pseudorandom hex strings. The
> Japanese man in the quoted story, who wrote โaneterโ for โamateurโ, was not
> dealing with a *mnemonic*: He was using the worldโs most inefficient means
> of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly.
>
> ----
>
> I began this thread with a quite simple request: Is โๆฅๆฌ่ชโ an appropriate
> string for identifying the Japanese language to Japanese users? And what
> of the other strings I posted for other languages?
>
> I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the greatest
> guard against vendor lock-in and stale software: Independent
> implementations. โ I asked, because obviously, I myself do not speak all
> these different languages; and I want to implement them all. *All.*
>
> Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far,
> nobody has squarely addressed the substance of my question.
>
> Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into criticism of
> multi-language support. I opened with a question about other languages,
> and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of โEnglish only!โ
>
> Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever
> implementing any standard of this nature which is artificially restricted
> to English. I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standard
> called โBIP 39โ which has seven non-English wordlists, and four more
> pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621).
>
> I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate for
> use with that standard.
>
> (P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the foregoing. I
> have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed characters. I
> thought of this after I searched for and collected some visually
> fascinating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC... It should go
> without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!)
>
>
> --
> nullius at nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00591B2F307E0C
> Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested:
> 3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG) (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE)
> โโIf youโre not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide.โ
> No! Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.โ โ nullius
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
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