nullius [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: ๐ Original date posted:2018-01-08 ๐ Original message:On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 ...
๐
Original date posted:2018-01-08
๐ Original message:On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, ๆจใไธใใใช <kinoshitajona at gmail.com>
wrote:
>This is very sad.
>
>The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English words.
>
>I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase (because
>he kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down "aneter" for
>"amateur"...
>
>[...]
>
>If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain
>processes the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down.
>Not many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for
>letter, taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion.
>
>[...]
>
>Defining "everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier to
>plan for" is not a good way to move forward as a currency.
Well said. Thank you for telling of these experiences. Now please,
letโs put the shoe on the other foot.
I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrust
*their own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write this
downโthen later, type it back in:
ใใใใใใใใใใใใใใใใใฆใใใใใใจใ
ใจใใใใฏใใใใใใใพใใปใใใใใกใใฃใตใใใใค
(Approximate translation: โWhatever would you do if Bitcoin had been
invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?โ)
No, wait: That is only a 12-word mnemonic. We are probably talking
about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your lifeโs
savings on your ability to handwrite *this*:
ใซใใใใใฒใใใใซใใใใใฒใใใใใใใใใใฎใใใญใใใใฏใใใใใฒใใ
ใจใใใใใใใใใใใชใใใใชใใชใใซใใใใใใใใใใใใใใใใใฟใใ
ใธใใใใใฒใใใใใใใฒใใตใใใใใใใใใใใใใใใใพใ
Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own hands?
No? Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on the
inverse case.
----
If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many
Japanese people know English and other European languages, too. Then
think of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate
family and friendsโif BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks
needed to wrestle with the above phrases as their โmnemonicsโ.
In such cases, the phrases cannot be called โmnemonicsโ at all. A
โmnemonicโ implies aid to memory. Gibberish in a wholly alien writing
system is much worse even than transcribing pseudorandom hex strings.
The Japanese man in the quoted story, who wrote โaneterโ for โamateurโ,
was not dealing with a *mnemonic*: He was using the worldโs most
inefficient means of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly.
----
I began this thread with a quite simple request: Is โๆฅๆฌ่ชโ an
appropriate string for identifying the Japanese language to Japanese
users? And what of the other strings I posted for other languages?
I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the
greatest guard against vendor lock-in and stale software: Independent
implementations. โ I asked, because obviously, I myself do not speak
all these different languages; and I want to implement them all. *All.*
Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far,
nobody has squarely addressed the substance of my question.
Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into criticism
of multi-language support. I opened with a question about other
languages, and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of
โEnglish only!โ
Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever
implementing any standard of this nature which is artificially
restricted to English. I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a
standard called โBIP 39โ which has seven non-English wordlists, and four
more pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621).
I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate for
use with that standard.
(P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the foregoing.
I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed characters. I
thought of this after I searched for and collected some visually
fascinating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC... It should
go without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!)
--
nullius at nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00591B2F307E0C
Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested:
3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG) (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE)
โโIf youโre not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide.โ
No! Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.โ โ nullius
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๐ Original message:On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, ๆจใไธใใใช <kinoshitajona at gmail.com>
wrote:
>This is very sad.
>
>The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English words.
>
>I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase (because
>he kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down "aneter" for
>"amateur"...
>
>[...]
>
>If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain
>processes the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down.
>Not many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for
>letter, taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion.
>
>[...]
>
>Defining "everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier to
>plan for" is not a good way to move forward as a currency.
Well said. Thank you for telling of these experiences. Now please,
letโs put the shoe on the other foot.
I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrust
*their own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write this
downโthen later, type it back in:
ใใใใใใใใใใใใใใใใใฆใใใใใใจใ
ใจใใใใฏใใใใใใใพใใปใใใใใกใใฃใตใใใใค
(Approximate translation: โWhatever would you do if Bitcoin had been
invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?โ)
No, wait: That is only a 12-word mnemonic. We are probably talking
about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your lifeโs
savings on your ability to handwrite *this*:
ใซใใใใใฒใใใใซใใใใใฒใใใใใใใใใใฎใใใญใใใใฏใใใใใฒใใ
ใจใใใใใใใใใใใชใใใใชใใชใใซใใใใใใใใใใใใใใใใใฟใใ
ใธใใใใใฒใใใใใใใฒใใตใใใใใใใใใใใใใใใใพใ
Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own hands?
No? Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on the
inverse case.
----
If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many
Japanese people know English and other European languages, too. Then
think of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate
family and friendsโif BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks
needed to wrestle with the above phrases as their โmnemonicsโ.
In such cases, the phrases cannot be called โmnemonicsโ at all. A
โmnemonicโ implies aid to memory. Gibberish in a wholly alien writing
system is much worse even than transcribing pseudorandom hex strings.
The Japanese man in the quoted story, who wrote โaneterโ for โamateurโ,
was not dealing with a *mnemonic*: He was using the worldโs most
inefficient means of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly.
----
I began this thread with a quite simple request: Is โๆฅๆฌ่ชโ an
appropriate string for identifying the Japanese language to Japanese
users? And what of the other strings I posted for other languages?
I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the
greatest guard against vendor lock-in and stale software: Independent
implementations. โ I asked, because obviously, I myself do not speak
all these different languages; and I want to implement them all. *All.*
Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far,
nobody has squarely addressed the substance of my question.
Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into criticism
of multi-language support. I opened with a question about other
languages, and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of
โEnglish only!โ
Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever
implementing any standard of this nature which is artificially
restricted to English. I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a
standard called โBIP 39โ which has seven non-English wordlists, and four
more pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621).
I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate for
use with that standard.
(P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the foregoing.
I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed characters. I
thought of this after I searched for and collected some visually
fascinating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC... It should
go without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!)
--
nullius at nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00591B2F307E0C
Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested:
3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG) (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE)
โโIf youโre not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide.โ
No! Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.โ โ nullius
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