Aaron Voisine [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2015-05-13 📝 Original message:> I concede the point. ...
📅 Original date posted:2015-05-13
📝 Original message:> I concede the point. Perhaps a flag date based on previous observation of
network upgrade rates with a conservative additional margin in addition to
supermajority of mining power.
It occurs to me that this would allow for a relatively small percentage of
miners to stop the upgrade if the flag date turns out to be poorly chosen
and a large number of non-mining nodes haven't upgraded yet. Would be a
nice safety fallback.
Aaron Voisine
co-founder and CEO
breadwallet.com
On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 6:31 PM, Aaron Voisine <voisine at gmail.com> wrote:
> > by people and businesses deciding to not use on-chain settlement.
>
> I completely agree. Increasing fees will cause people voluntary economize
> on blockspace by finding alternatives, i.e. not bitcoin. A fee however is a
> known, upfront cost... unpredictable transaction failure in most cases will
> be a far higher, unacceptable cost to the user than the actual fee. The
> higher the costs of using the system, the lower the adoption as a
> store-of-value. The lower the adoption as store-of-value, the lower the
> price, and the lower the value of bitcoin to the world.
>
> > That only measures miner adoption, which is the least relevant.
>
> I concede the point. Perhaps a flag date based on previous observation of
> network upgrade rates with a conservative additional margin in addition to
> supermajority of mining power.
>
>
> Aaron Voisine
> co-founder and CEO
> breadwallet.com
>
> On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 6:19 PM, Pieter Wuille <pieter.wuille at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 6:13 PM, Aaron Voisine <voisine at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Conservative is a relative term. Dropping transactions in a way that is
>>> unpredictable to the sender sounds incredibly drastic to me. I'm suggesting
>>> increasing the blocksize, drastic as it is, is the more conservative choice.
>>>
>>
>> Transactions are already being dropped, in a more indirect way: by people
>> and businesses deciding to not use on-chain settlement. That is very sad,
>> but it's completely inevitable that there is space for some use cases and
>> not for others (at whatever block size). It's only a "things don't fit
>> anymore" when you see on-chain transactions as the only means for doing
>> payments, and that is already not the case. Increasing the block size
>> allows for more utility on-chain, but it does not fundamentally add more
>> use cases - only more growth space for people already invested in being
>> able to do things on-chain while externalizing the costs to others.
>>
>>
>>> I would recommend that the fork take effect when some specific large
>>> supermajority of the pervious 1000 blocks indicate they have upgraded, as a
>>> safer alternative to a simple flag date, but I'm sure I wouldn't have to
>>> point out that option to people here.
>>>
>>
>> That only measures miner adoption, which is the least relevant. The
>> question is whether people using full nodes will upgrade. If they do, then
>> miners are forced to upgrade too, or become irrelevant. If they don't, the
>> upgrade is risky with or without miner adoption.
>>
>> --
>> Pieter
>>
>>
>
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📝 Original message:> I concede the point. Perhaps a flag date based on previous observation of
network upgrade rates with a conservative additional margin in addition to
supermajority of mining power.
It occurs to me that this would allow for a relatively small percentage of
miners to stop the upgrade if the flag date turns out to be poorly chosen
and a large number of non-mining nodes haven't upgraded yet. Would be a
nice safety fallback.
Aaron Voisine
co-founder and CEO
breadwallet.com
On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 6:31 PM, Aaron Voisine <voisine at gmail.com> wrote:
> > by people and businesses deciding to not use on-chain settlement.
>
> I completely agree. Increasing fees will cause people voluntary economize
> on blockspace by finding alternatives, i.e. not bitcoin. A fee however is a
> known, upfront cost... unpredictable transaction failure in most cases will
> be a far higher, unacceptable cost to the user than the actual fee. The
> higher the costs of using the system, the lower the adoption as a
> store-of-value. The lower the adoption as store-of-value, the lower the
> price, and the lower the value of bitcoin to the world.
>
> > That only measures miner adoption, which is the least relevant.
>
> I concede the point. Perhaps a flag date based on previous observation of
> network upgrade rates with a conservative additional margin in addition to
> supermajority of mining power.
>
>
> Aaron Voisine
> co-founder and CEO
> breadwallet.com
>
> On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 6:19 PM, Pieter Wuille <pieter.wuille at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 6:13 PM, Aaron Voisine <voisine at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Conservative is a relative term. Dropping transactions in a way that is
>>> unpredictable to the sender sounds incredibly drastic to me. I'm suggesting
>>> increasing the blocksize, drastic as it is, is the more conservative choice.
>>>
>>
>> Transactions are already being dropped, in a more indirect way: by people
>> and businesses deciding to not use on-chain settlement. That is very sad,
>> but it's completely inevitable that there is space for some use cases and
>> not for others (at whatever block size). It's only a "things don't fit
>> anymore" when you see on-chain transactions as the only means for doing
>> payments, and that is already not the case. Increasing the block size
>> allows for more utility on-chain, but it does not fundamentally add more
>> use cases - only more growth space for people already invested in being
>> able to do things on-chain while externalizing the costs to others.
>>
>>
>>> I would recommend that the fork take effect when some specific large
>>> supermajority of the pervious 1000 blocks indicate they have upgraded, as a
>>> safer alternative to a simple flag date, but I'm sure I wouldn't have to
>>> point out that option to people here.
>>>
>>
>> That only measures miner adoption, which is the least relevant. The
>> question is whether people using full nodes will upgrade. If they do, then
>> miners are forced to upgrade too, or become irrelevant. If they don't, the
>> upgrade is risky with or without miner adoption.
>>
>> --
>> Pieter
>>
>>
>
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