Russell O'Connor [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2021-07-04 📝 Original message:Bear in mind that when ...
📅 Original date posted:2021-07-04
📝 Original message:Bear in mind that when people are talking about enabling covenants, we are
talking about whether OP_CAT should be allowed or not.
That said, recursive covenants, the type that are most worrying, seems to
require some kind of OP_TWEAK operation, and I haven't yet seen any
evidence that this can be simulated with CHECKSIG(FROMSTACK). So maybe we
should leave such worries for the OP_TWEAK operation.
On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 8:51 PM ZmnSCPxj via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> Good morning Dave,
>
> > On Sun, Jul 04, 2021 at 11:39:44AM -0700, Jeremy wrote:
> >
> > > However, I think the broader community is unconvinced by the cost
> benefit
> > > of arbitrary covenants. See
> > >
> https://medium.com/block-digest-mempool/my-worries-about-too-generalized-covenants-5eff33affbb6
> > > as a recent example. Therefore as a critical part of building
> consensus on
> > > various techniques I've worked to emphasize that specific additions do
> not
> > > entail risk of accidentally introducing more than was bargained for to
> > > respect the concerns of others.
> >
> > Respecting the concerns of others doesn't require lobotomizing useful
> > tools. Being respectful can also be accomplished by politely showing
> > that their concerns are unfounded (or at least less severe than they
> > thought). This is almost always the better course IMO---it takes much
> > more effort to satisfy additional engineering constraints (and prove to
> > reviewers that you've done so!) than it does to simply discuss those
> > concerns with reasonable stakeholders. As a demonstration, let's look
> > at the concerns from Shinobi's post linked above:
> >
> > They seem to be worried that some Bitcoin users will choose to accept
> > coins that can't subsequently be fungibily mixed with other bitcoins.
> > But that's already been the case for a decade: users can accept altcoins
> > that are non-fungible with bitcoins.
> >
> > They talk about covenants where spending is controlled by governments,
> > but that seems to me exactly like China's CBDC trial.
> >
> > They talk about exchanges depositing users' BTC into a covenant, but
> > that's just a variation on the classic not-your-keys-not-your-bitcoins
> > problem. For all you know, your local exchange is keeping most of its
> > BTC balance commitments in ETH or USDT.
> >
> > To me, it seems like the worst-case problems Shinobi describes with
> > covenants are some of the same problems that already exist with
> > altcoins. I don't see how recursive covenants could make any of those
> > problems worse, and so I don't see any point in limiting Bitcoin's
> > flexibility to avoid those problems when there are so many interesting
> > and useful things that unlimited covenants could do.
>
> The "altcoins are even worse" argument does seem quite convincing, and if
> Bitcoin can survive altcoins, surely it can survive covenants too?
>
> In before "turns out covenants are the next ICO".
> i.e. ICOs are just colored coins, which are useful for keeping track of
> various stuff, but have then been used as a vehicle to scam people.
> But I suppose that is a problem that humans will always have: limited
> cognition, so that *good* popular things that are outside your specific
> field of study are indistinguishable from *bad* popular things.
> So perhaps it should not be a concern on a technical level.
> Maybe we should instead make articles about covenants so boring nobody
> will hype about it (^^;)v.
>
> Increased functionality implies increased processing, and hopefully
> computation devices are getting cheap enough that the increased processing
> implied by new features should not be too onerous.
>
>
>
> To my mind, an "inescapable" covenant (i.e. one that requires the output
> to be paid to the same covenant) is basically a Turing machine, and
> equivalent to a `while (true);` loop.
> In a `while (true);` loop, the state of the machine reverts back to the
> same state, and it repeats again.
> In an inescpable covenant, the control of some amount of funds reverts
> back to the same controlling SCRIPT, and it repeats again.
> Yes, you can certainly add more functionality on top of that loop, just
> think of program main loops for games or daemons, which are, in essence,
> "just" `while (true) ...`.
> But basically, such unbounded infinite loops are possible only under
> Turing machines, thus I consider covenants to be Turing-complete.
> Principle of Least Power should make us wonder if we need full Turing
> machines for the functionality.
>
> On the other hand --- codata processing *does* allow for unbounded loops,
> without requiring full Turing-completeness; they just require total
> functionality, not partial (and Turing-completeness is partial, not total).
> Basically, data structures are unbounded storage, while codata structures
> are unbounded processing.
> Perhaps covenants can encode an upper bound on the number of recursions,
> which prevents full Turing-completeness while allowing for a large number
> of use-cases.
>
> (if the above paragraph makes no sense to you, hopefully this Wikipedia
> article will help:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_functional_programming )
> (basically my argument here is based on academic programming stuff, and
> might not actually matter in real life)
>
> Regards,
> ZmnSCPxj
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
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📝 Original message:Bear in mind that when people are talking about enabling covenants, we are
talking about whether OP_CAT should be allowed or not.
That said, recursive covenants, the type that are most worrying, seems to
require some kind of OP_TWEAK operation, and I haven't yet seen any
evidence that this can be simulated with CHECKSIG(FROMSTACK). So maybe we
should leave such worries for the OP_TWEAK operation.
On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 8:51 PM ZmnSCPxj via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> Good morning Dave,
>
> > On Sun, Jul 04, 2021 at 11:39:44AM -0700, Jeremy wrote:
> >
> > > However, I think the broader community is unconvinced by the cost
> benefit
> > > of arbitrary covenants. See
> > >
> https://medium.com/block-digest-mempool/my-worries-about-too-generalized-covenants-5eff33affbb6
> > > as a recent example. Therefore as a critical part of building
> consensus on
> > > various techniques I've worked to emphasize that specific additions do
> not
> > > entail risk of accidentally introducing more than was bargained for to
> > > respect the concerns of others.
> >
> > Respecting the concerns of others doesn't require lobotomizing useful
> > tools. Being respectful can also be accomplished by politely showing
> > that their concerns are unfounded (or at least less severe than they
> > thought). This is almost always the better course IMO---it takes much
> > more effort to satisfy additional engineering constraints (and prove to
> > reviewers that you've done so!) than it does to simply discuss those
> > concerns with reasonable stakeholders. As a demonstration, let's look
> > at the concerns from Shinobi's post linked above:
> >
> > They seem to be worried that some Bitcoin users will choose to accept
> > coins that can't subsequently be fungibily mixed with other bitcoins.
> > But that's already been the case for a decade: users can accept altcoins
> > that are non-fungible with bitcoins.
> >
> > They talk about covenants where spending is controlled by governments,
> > but that seems to me exactly like China's CBDC trial.
> >
> > They talk about exchanges depositing users' BTC into a covenant, but
> > that's just a variation on the classic not-your-keys-not-your-bitcoins
> > problem. For all you know, your local exchange is keeping most of its
> > BTC balance commitments in ETH or USDT.
> >
> > To me, it seems like the worst-case problems Shinobi describes with
> > covenants are some of the same problems that already exist with
> > altcoins. I don't see how recursive covenants could make any of those
> > problems worse, and so I don't see any point in limiting Bitcoin's
> > flexibility to avoid those problems when there are so many interesting
> > and useful things that unlimited covenants could do.
>
> The "altcoins are even worse" argument does seem quite convincing, and if
> Bitcoin can survive altcoins, surely it can survive covenants too?
>
> In before "turns out covenants are the next ICO".
> i.e. ICOs are just colored coins, which are useful for keeping track of
> various stuff, but have then been used as a vehicle to scam people.
> But I suppose that is a problem that humans will always have: limited
> cognition, so that *good* popular things that are outside your specific
> field of study are indistinguishable from *bad* popular things.
> So perhaps it should not be a concern on a technical level.
> Maybe we should instead make articles about covenants so boring nobody
> will hype about it (^^;)v.
>
> Increased functionality implies increased processing, and hopefully
> computation devices are getting cheap enough that the increased processing
> implied by new features should not be too onerous.
>
>
>
> To my mind, an "inescapable" covenant (i.e. one that requires the output
> to be paid to the same covenant) is basically a Turing machine, and
> equivalent to a `while (true);` loop.
> In a `while (true);` loop, the state of the machine reverts back to the
> same state, and it repeats again.
> In an inescpable covenant, the control of some amount of funds reverts
> back to the same controlling SCRIPT, and it repeats again.
> Yes, you can certainly add more functionality on top of that loop, just
> think of program main loops for games or daemons, which are, in essence,
> "just" `while (true) ...`.
> But basically, such unbounded infinite loops are possible only under
> Turing machines, thus I consider covenants to be Turing-complete.
> Principle of Least Power should make us wonder if we need full Turing
> machines for the functionality.
>
> On the other hand --- codata processing *does* allow for unbounded loops,
> without requiring full Turing-completeness; they just require total
> functionality, not partial (and Turing-completeness is partial, not total).
> Basically, data structures are unbounded storage, while codata structures
> are unbounded processing.
> Perhaps covenants can encode an upper bound on the number of recursions,
> which prevents full Turing-completeness while allowing for a large number
> of use-cases.
>
> (if the above paragraph makes no sense to you, hopefully this Wikipedia
> article will help:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_functional_programming )
> (basically my argument here is based on academic programming stuff, and
> might not actually matter in real life)
>
> Regards,
> ZmnSCPxj
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
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