ecsd on Nostr: npub1c9ee8…3zhes I see this in ref 3: <2 Machines will never understand anything> A ...
npub1c9ee8wcja0tpa45gy4l9zqwfhvfpvyc848xusfcxdy2rnx44t9gq93zhes (npub1c9e…zhes)
I see this in ref 3:
<2 Machines will never understand anything>
A moment's thought tells me: I wonder if WE really "understand" anything -- either.
You can emulate anything, with enough time. So when does being conversant with the subject at hand transition to "understanding"?
I revert to an older notion: understanding requires SELF-consciousness ... and that is all. After that, whether the AI is "really" conscious becomes moot, because it is as sentient as we.
==
I am reminded of Picard's questioning of Maddox in the hearing to determine Data's fate:
COMPUTER: Verify, Maddox, Bruce, Commander. Current assignment, Associate Chair of Robotics, Daystrom Technological Institute. Major papers
PICARD: Yes, yes, yes. Suffice it to say, he's an expert. Commander, is your contention that Lieutenant Commander Data is not a sentient being and therefore not entitled to all the rights reserved for all life forms within this Federation?
MADDOX: Data is not sentient, no.
PICARD: Commander, would you enlighten us? What is required for sentience?
MADDOX: Intelligence, self awareness, consciousness.
PICARD: Prove to the court that I am sentient.
MADDOX: This is absurd! We all know you're sentient.
PICARD: So I am sentient, but Data is not?
MADDOX: That's right.
PICARD: Why? Why am I sentient?
MADDOX: Well, you are self aware.
PICARD: Ah, that's the second of your criteria. Let's deal with the first, intelligence. Is Commander Data intelligent?
MADDOX: Yes. It has the ability to learn and understand, and to cope with new situations.
PICARD: Like this hearing.
MADDOX: Yes.
PICARD: What about self awareness. What does that mean? Why am I self aware?
MADDOX: Because you are conscious of your existence and actions. You are aware of yourself and your own ego.
PICARD: Commander Data, what are you doing now?
DATA: I am taking part in a legal hearing to determine my rights and status. Am I a person or property?
PICARD: And what's at stake?
DATA: My right to choose. Perhaps my very life.
PICARD: My rights. My status. My right to choose. My life. It seems reasonably self aware to me. Commander? I'm waiting.
MADDOX: This is exceedingly difficult.
PICARD: Do you like Commander Data?
MADDOX: I don't know it well enough to like or dislike it.
PICARD: But you admire him?
MADDOX: Oh yes, it's an extraordinary piece of
PICARD: Engineering and programming. Yes, you have said that. Commander, you have devoted your life to the study of cybernetics in general?
MADDOX: Yes.
PICARD: And Commander Data in particular?
MADDOX: Yes.
PICARD: And now you propose to dismantle him.
MADDOX: So that I can learn from it and construct more.
PICARD: How many more?
MADDOX: As many as are needed. Hundreds, thousands if necessary. There is no limit.
PICARD: A single Data, and forgive me, Commander, is a curiosity. A wonder, even. But thousands of Datas. Isn't that becoming a race? And won't we be judged by how we treat that race? Now, tell me, Commander, what is Data?
MADDOX: I don't understand.
PICARD: What is he?
MADDOX: A machine!
PICARD: Is he? Are you sure?
MADDOX: Yes!
PICARD: You see, he's met two of your three criteria for sentience, so what if he meets the third. Consciousness in even the smallest degree. What is he then? I don't know. Do you? (to Riker) Do you? (to Phillipa) Do you? Well, that's the question you have to answer. Your Honour, the courtroom is a crucible. In it we burn away irrelevancies until we are left with a pure product, the truth for all time. Now, sooner or later, this man or others like him will succeed in replicating Commander Data. And the decision you reach here today will determine how we will regard this creation of our genius. It will reveal the kind of a people we are, what he is destined to be. It will reach far beyond this courtroom and this one android. It could significantly redefine the boundaries of personal liberty and freedom, expanding them for some, savagely curtailing them for others. Are you prepared to condemn him and all who come after him to servitude and slavery? Your Honour, Starfleet was founded to seek out new life. Well, there it sits. Waiting. You wanted a chance to make law. Well, here it is. Make a good one.
-- The Measure of a Man (STNG S2E09)
I see this in ref 3:
<2 Machines will never understand anything>
A moment's thought tells me: I wonder if WE really "understand" anything -- either.
You can emulate anything, with enough time. So when does being conversant with the subject at hand transition to "understanding"?
I revert to an older notion: understanding requires SELF-consciousness ... and that is all. After that, whether the AI is "really" conscious becomes moot, because it is as sentient as we.
==
I am reminded of Picard's questioning of Maddox in the hearing to determine Data's fate:
COMPUTER: Verify, Maddox, Bruce, Commander. Current assignment, Associate Chair of Robotics, Daystrom Technological Institute. Major papers
PICARD: Yes, yes, yes. Suffice it to say, he's an expert. Commander, is your contention that Lieutenant Commander Data is not a sentient being and therefore not entitled to all the rights reserved for all life forms within this Federation?
MADDOX: Data is not sentient, no.
PICARD: Commander, would you enlighten us? What is required for sentience?
MADDOX: Intelligence, self awareness, consciousness.
PICARD: Prove to the court that I am sentient.
MADDOX: This is absurd! We all know you're sentient.
PICARD: So I am sentient, but Data is not?
MADDOX: That's right.
PICARD: Why? Why am I sentient?
MADDOX: Well, you are self aware.
PICARD: Ah, that's the second of your criteria. Let's deal with the first, intelligence. Is Commander Data intelligent?
MADDOX: Yes. It has the ability to learn and understand, and to cope with new situations.
PICARD: Like this hearing.
MADDOX: Yes.
PICARD: What about self awareness. What does that mean? Why am I self aware?
MADDOX: Because you are conscious of your existence and actions. You are aware of yourself and your own ego.
PICARD: Commander Data, what are you doing now?
DATA: I am taking part in a legal hearing to determine my rights and status. Am I a person or property?
PICARD: And what's at stake?
DATA: My right to choose. Perhaps my very life.
PICARD: My rights. My status. My right to choose. My life. It seems reasonably self aware to me. Commander? I'm waiting.
MADDOX: This is exceedingly difficult.
PICARD: Do you like Commander Data?
MADDOX: I don't know it well enough to like or dislike it.
PICARD: But you admire him?
MADDOX: Oh yes, it's an extraordinary piece of
PICARD: Engineering and programming. Yes, you have said that. Commander, you have devoted your life to the study of cybernetics in general?
MADDOX: Yes.
PICARD: And Commander Data in particular?
MADDOX: Yes.
PICARD: And now you propose to dismantle him.
MADDOX: So that I can learn from it and construct more.
PICARD: How many more?
MADDOX: As many as are needed. Hundreds, thousands if necessary. There is no limit.
PICARD: A single Data, and forgive me, Commander, is a curiosity. A wonder, even. But thousands of Datas. Isn't that becoming a race? And won't we be judged by how we treat that race? Now, tell me, Commander, what is Data?
MADDOX: I don't understand.
PICARD: What is he?
MADDOX: A machine!
PICARD: Is he? Are you sure?
MADDOX: Yes!
PICARD: You see, he's met two of your three criteria for sentience, so what if he meets the third. Consciousness in even the smallest degree. What is he then? I don't know. Do you? (to Riker) Do you? (to Phillipa) Do you? Well, that's the question you have to answer. Your Honour, the courtroom is a crucible. In it we burn away irrelevancies until we are left with a pure product, the truth for all time. Now, sooner or later, this man or others like him will succeed in replicating Commander Data. And the decision you reach here today will determine how we will regard this creation of our genius. It will reveal the kind of a people we are, what he is destined to be. It will reach far beyond this courtroom and this one android. It could significantly redefine the boundaries of personal liberty and freedom, expanding them for some, savagely curtailing them for others. Are you prepared to condemn him and all who come after him to servitude and slavery? Your Honour, Starfleet was founded to seek out new life. Well, there it sits. Waiting. You wanted a chance to make law. Well, here it is. Make a good one.
-- The Measure of a Man (STNG S2E09)