slush [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2013-10-24 📝 Original message:On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at ...
📅 Original date posted:2013-10-24
📝 Original message:On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 7:29 PM, <thomasV1 at gmx.de> wrote:
>
> My initial problem was that BIP0039 is not backward compatible with
> Electrum. When trying to solve that, I realized that the seed encoding used
> in Electrum does not help, because it does not contain a version number
> information. However, BIP0039 suffers the same shortcoming: it does nothing
> to help a future replacement, it wants to be final. My first recommendation
> is to allocate a few bits of the mnemonic, in order to encode a "version
> number" along with the checksum bits.
>
>
Two years ago I proposed exactly this and you refused to add extra
information to mnemonic, because "it isn't necessary" and "it makes it
longer to mnemonization". What changed since then?
> The second problem is the wallet structure. There are multiple ways to use
> a BIP32 tree, and each client will certainly handle this differently. For
> Electrum, it is important to be able to recover an entire wallet from its
> mnemonic, using no extra information. Thus, the client needs to know which
> branches of the BIP32 tree are populated by default. This means that the
> "version number" I mentioned will not only be about the seed encoding, but
> it should also give some information about the wallet structure, at least
> in the case of Electrum.
>
>
Hm, what exactly do you need to store about wallet structure? I lived in
opinion that everything is able to recover using CKD function to generate
new addresses and blockchain lookups for their balances.
> The third problem is the dictionary. I do not like the dictionary proposed
> in BIP0039, because it contains too many short words, which are bad for
> memorization (I explained here how I designed the dictionary used by
> Electrum:
> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=153990.msg2167909#msg2167909). I
> had some discussions with slush about this, but I do not think it will ever
> be possible to find a consensus on that topic.
>
>
Yes, that's true. It isn't possible to make everybody 100% happy. At least
I wanted to be constructive and asked you to replace the most problematic
words. No pull request from you so far.
> BIP0039 also suggests to use localized dictionaries, with non-colliding
> word lists, but it is not clear how that will be achieved; it seems to be
> difficult, because languages often have words in common. It looks like a
> first-come-first-served aproach will be used.
>
>
Yes, it was original idea. So far I don't think this is a problem. Of
course some words may have some meaning across languages, but it should be
easy to avoid them. There are tens of thousands words in every language and
we need to pick "only" 2048 words to wordlist.
> For these reasons, I believe that we need a dictionary-independent
> solution. This will allow developers to use the dictionary they like, and
> localization will be easy.
>
I would like to suggest the following solution:
>
>
If I understand this well, it is basically one-way algorithm "mnemonic ->
seed", right? Seed cannot be printed out as mnemonic, because there's
hashing involved, but the bi-directionality has been the original
requirement for such algorithm (at least in Electrum and bip39).
Then, how is this different to picking 12 random words from dictionary and
hashing them together? I don't see any benefit in that "mining" part of the
proposal (except that it is lowering the entropy for given length of
mnemonic).
> This solution makes it possible for developers to define new dictionaries,
> localized or adapted to a particular need.
>
Are your worries about overlapping words across languages a real issue?
slush
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📝 Original message:On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 7:29 PM, <thomasV1 at gmx.de> wrote:
>
> My initial problem was that BIP0039 is not backward compatible with
> Electrum. When trying to solve that, I realized that the seed encoding used
> in Electrum does not help, because it does not contain a version number
> information. However, BIP0039 suffers the same shortcoming: it does nothing
> to help a future replacement, it wants to be final. My first recommendation
> is to allocate a few bits of the mnemonic, in order to encode a "version
> number" along with the checksum bits.
>
>
Two years ago I proposed exactly this and you refused to add extra
information to mnemonic, because "it isn't necessary" and "it makes it
longer to mnemonization". What changed since then?
> The second problem is the wallet structure. There are multiple ways to use
> a BIP32 tree, and each client will certainly handle this differently. For
> Electrum, it is important to be able to recover an entire wallet from its
> mnemonic, using no extra information. Thus, the client needs to know which
> branches of the BIP32 tree are populated by default. This means that the
> "version number" I mentioned will not only be about the seed encoding, but
> it should also give some information about the wallet structure, at least
> in the case of Electrum.
>
>
Hm, what exactly do you need to store about wallet structure? I lived in
opinion that everything is able to recover using CKD function to generate
new addresses and blockchain lookups for their balances.
> The third problem is the dictionary. I do not like the dictionary proposed
> in BIP0039, because it contains too many short words, which are bad for
> memorization (I explained here how I designed the dictionary used by
> Electrum:
> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=153990.msg2167909#msg2167909). I
> had some discussions with slush about this, but I do not think it will ever
> be possible to find a consensus on that topic.
>
>
Yes, that's true. It isn't possible to make everybody 100% happy. At least
I wanted to be constructive and asked you to replace the most problematic
words. No pull request from you so far.
> BIP0039 also suggests to use localized dictionaries, with non-colliding
> word lists, but it is not clear how that will be achieved; it seems to be
> difficult, because languages often have words in common. It looks like a
> first-come-first-served aproach will be used.
>
>
Yes, it was original idea. So far I don't think this is a problem. Of
course some words may have some meaning across languages, but it should be
easy to avoid them. There are tens of thousands words in every language and
we need to pick "only" 2048 words to wordlist.
> For these reasons, I believe that we need a dictionary-independent
> solution. This will allow developers to use the dictionary they like, and
> localization will be easy.
>
I would like to suggest the following solution:
>
>
If I understand this well, it is basically one-way algorithm "mnemonic ->
seed", right? Seed cannot be printed out as mnemonic, because there's
hashing involved, but the bi-directionality has been the original
requirement for such algorithm (at least in Electrum and bip39).
Then, how is this different to picking 12 random words from dictionary and
hashing them together? I don't see any benefit in that "mining" part of the
proposal (except that it is lowering the entropy for given length of
mnemonic).
> This solution makes it possible for developers to define new dictionaries,
> localized or adapted to a particular need.
>
Are your worries about overlapping words across languages a real issue?
slush
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