Moral Agent [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2017-08-21 📝 Original message:A more forgiving option ...
📅 Original date posted:2017-08-21
📝 Original message:A more forgiving option would be to have coins past a certain age evaporate
into mining rewards at some rate, rather than all at once. People might
find this approach easier to stomach as it avoids the "I waited 1 block to
many and all of my coins vanished" scenario.
Another approach would to demand that a certain minimum mining fee be
included that is calculated based on the age of an input like this idea:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/35ilir/prioritizing_utxos_using_a_minimum_mining_fee/
This would result in the coins continuing to exist but not being
economically spendable, and therefore the UTXO information could be
archived.
On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 9:35 AM, Thomas Guyot-Sionnest via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> On 21/07/17 03:59 PM, Lucas Clemente Vella via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> > 2017-07-21 16:28 GMT-03:00 Major Kusanagi via bitcoin-dev
> > <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> > <mailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>>:
> >
> > [...] But the fact is that if we want to make bitcoins last forever,
> > we have the accept unbounded UTXO growth, which is unscalable. So
> > the only solution is to limit UTXO growth, meaning bitcoins cannot
> > last forever. This proposed solution however does not prevent
> > Bitcoin from lasting forever.
> >
> >
> > Unless there is a logical contradiction in this phrasing, the proposed
> > solution does not improves scalability:
> > - "Bitcoins lasting forever" implies "unscalable";
> > - "not prevent Bitcoin from lasting forever" implies "Bitcoins lasting
> > forever";
> > - Thus: "not prevent Bitcoin from lasting forever" implies "unscalable".
> >
> > In practice, the only Bitcoin lost would be those whose owners forgot
> > about or has lost the keys, because everyone with a significant amount
> > of Bitcoins would always shift them around before it loses any luster (I
> > wouldn't bother to move my Bitcoins every 10 years). I don't know how to
> > estimate the percentage of UTXO is actually lost/forgotten, but I have
> > the opinion it isn't worth the hassle.
> >
> > As a side note, your estimate talks about block size, which is
> > determines blockchain size, which can be "safely" pruned (if you are not
> > considering new nodes might want to join the network, in case the full
> > history is needed to be stored somewhere). But UTXO size, albeit related
> > to the full blockchain size, is the part that currently can not be
> > safely pruned, so I don't see the relevance of the analysis.
>
> I think if we wanted to burn lost/stale coins a better approach would be
> returning them to miner's as a fee - there will always be lost coins and
> miners will be able to get that additional revenue stream as the mining
> reward halves. I also don't think we need to worry about doing a gradual
> value loss neither, we should just put a limit on UTXO age in block
> count (actually I would round it up to 210k blocks as explained below...).
>
>
> So lets say for example we decide to keep 5 210k blocks "generations"
> (that's over 15 years), then on the first block of the 6th generation
> all UTXO's from the 1st generation are invalidated and returned into a
> "pool".
>
> Given these (values in satoshis):
>
> Pool "P" (invalided UTXO minus total value reclaimed since last halving)
> Leftover blocks "B" (210,000 minus blocks mined since last halving)
>
> Then every mined block can reclaim FLOOR(P/B) satoshi in addition to
> miner's reward and tx fees.
>
> If the last block of a generation does not get the remainder of the pool
> (FLOOR(P/1) == P) it should get carried over.
>
>
> This would ensure we can clear old blocks after a few generations and
> that burnt/lost coins eventually get back in circulation. Also it would
> reduce the reliance of miners on actual TX fees.
>
>
> To avoid excessive miner reward initially, for the first few iterations
> the value of B could be increased (I haven't calculated the UTXO size of
> the first 210k blocks but it could be excessively high...) or the value
> each block can reclaim could be caped (so we would reclaim at an
> artificial capacity until the pool depletes...).
>
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Thomas
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
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📝 Original message:A more forgiving option would be to have coins past a certain age evaporate
into mining rewards at some rate, rather than all at once. People might
find this approach easier to stomach as it avoids the "I waited 1 block to
many and all of my coins vanished" scenario.
Another approach would to demand that a certain minimum mining fee be
included that is calculated based on the age of an input like this idea:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/35ilir/prioritizing_utxos_using_a_minimum_mining_fee/
This would result in the coins continuing to exist but not being
economically spendable, and therefore the UTXO information could be
archived.
On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 9:35 AM, Thomas Guyot-Sionnest via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> On 21/07/17 03:59 PM, Lucas Clemente Vella via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> > 2017-07-21 16:28 GMT-03:00 Major Kusanagi via bitcoin-dev
> > <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> > <mailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>>:
> >
> > [...] But the fact is that if we want to make bitcoins last forever,
> > we have the accept unbounded UTXO growth, which is unscalable. So
> > the only solution is to limit UTXO growth, meaning bitcoins cannot
> > last forever. This proposed solution however does not prevent
> > Bitcoin from lasting forever.
> >
> >
> > Unless there is a logical contradiction in this phrasing, the proposed
> > solution does not improves scalability:
> > - "Bitcoins lasting forever" implies "unscalable";
> > - "not prevent Bitcoin from lasting forever" implies "Bitcoins lasting
> > forever";
> > - Thus: "not prevent Bitcoin from lasting forever" implies "unscalable".
> >
> > In practice, the only Bitcoin lost would be those whose owners forgot
> > about or has lost the keys, because everyone with a significant amount
> > of Bitcoins would always shift them around before it loses any luster (I
> > wouldn't bother to move my Bitcoins every 10 years). I don't know how to
> > estimate the percentage of UTXO is actually lost/forgotten, but I have
> > the opinion it isn't worth the hassle.
> >
> > As a side note, your estimate talks about block size, which is
> > determines blockchain size, which can be "safely" pruned (if you are not
> > considering new nodes might want to join the network, in case the full
> > history is needed to be stored somewhere). But UTXO size, albeit related
> > to the full blockchain size, is the part that currently can not be
> > safely pruned, so I don't see the relevance of the analysis.
>
> I think if we wanted to burn lost/stale coins a better approach would be
> returning them to miner's as a fee - there will always be lost coins and
> miners will be able to get that additional revenue stream as the mining
> reward halves. I also don't think we need to worry about doing a gradual
> value loss neither, we should just put a limit on UTXO age in block
> count (actually I would round it up to 210k blocks as explained below...).
>
>
> So lets say for example we decide to keep 5 210k blocks "generations"
> (that's over 15 years), then on the first block of the 6th generation
> all UTXO's from the 1st generation are invalidated and returned into a
> "pool".
>
> Given these (values in satoshis):
>
> Pool "P" (invalided UTXO minus total value reclaimed since last halving)
> Leftover blocks "B" (210,000 minus blocks mined since last halving)
>
> Then every mined block can reclaim FLOOR(P/B) satoshi in addition to
> miner's reward and tx fees.
>
> If the last block of a generation does not get the remainder of the pool
> (FLOOR(P/1) == P) it should get carried over.
>
>
> This would ensure we can clear old blocks after a few generations and
> that burnt/lost coins eventually get back in circulation. Also it would
> reduce the reliance of miners on actual TX fees.
>
>
> To avoid excessive miner reward initially, for the first few iterations
> the value of B could be increased (I haven't calculated the UTXO size of
> the first 210k blocks but it could be excessively high...) or the value
> each block can reclaim could be caped (so we would reclaim at an
> artificial capacity until the pool depletes...).
>
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Thomas
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
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