odinn [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2015-07-30 📝 Original message:-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED ...
📅 Original date posted:2015-07-30
📝 Original message:-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Some additional points....
On 07/29/2015 03:54 PM, s7r via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> (...)
>
> The more people use bitcoin, the more demand we have on the market
> for BTC, the higher BTC/FIAT rate will be, more people will become
> interested in mining and so on. Bitcoin is not a
> rich-only-private-club, it's an open, global, decentralized payment
> network. The less people use it... I guess you figured it out.
Yes.
(...) Having some
> offchain solution for small transactions would be a good idea, but
> this doesn't mean we should make small transactions impossible due
> to absurd fees.
This is correct also.
>
> On 7/29/2015 8:47 PM, Raystonn . via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>>> When a category of users would get priced out because of the
>>> fee
>> market, they would be free to use any altcoin they want.
>>
>> I believe that pretty well sums up where we’re headed if
>> transaction rate is artificially limited, whether that be by
>> maximum block size limit or something else. A fee market will
>> necessarily include more than just Bitcoin. The reality is it’s
>> very easy to trade value across different blockchains, and thus a
>> fee market will bleed value from Bitcoin and give it to
>> alternative blockchains. If Bitcoin’s blocks are at maximum
>> capacity, people will exchange for something that allows them to
>> transact with a lesser fee, then make the desired payment. This
>> adds value to the alternative blockchain and removes it from
>> Bitcoin.
>>
>> Anyone thinking the fee market can be restrained to Bitcoin alone
>> is mistaken.
>>
>>
>> *From:* Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev
>> <mailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> *Sent:* Wednesday,
>> July 29, 2015 7:09 AM *To:*
>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> <mailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> *Subject:*
>> [bitcoin-dev] Răspuns: Personal opinion on the fee market from a
>> worried local trader
>>
>> I am disappointed that you did not understand my point of view.
>> Let me rephrase it for you,
>>
>> People tipping, buying 0.99$ products and gamblers that need
>> Bitcoin transactions *more* than the rest of the people will
>> afford the fees that establish the equilibrium between demand and
>> supply of Bitcoin transactions. The people are free to use they
>> money for whatever they like, but you should understand that
>> Bitcoin transactions are not free.
>>
>> I was merely attempting to point out that spammers and gamblers
>> would be the first ones that would go away. They would be free to
>> spam or gamble, but they would have to pay for it.
>>
>> When a category of users would get priced out because of the fee
>> market, they would be free to use any altcoin they want.
>>
>> Please understand that not everyone will leave. The more
>> important players will remain, those that need it the most. The
>> other players are free to use whatever altcoin they wish.
>>
>>
>> În Miercuri, 29 Iulie 2015 16:47:57, Angel Leon
>> <gubatron at gmail.com> a scris:
>>
>>
>> "the gamblers and perhaps people transacting very low amounts.
>> The people that actually need Bitcoin would remain."
>>
>> so people tipping, buying $0.99 products, and gamblers actually
>> don't need Bitcoin. Who are you to say what people need to use
>> money for? This statement goes against the freedom of
>> decentralization and financial freedom Bitcoin should be able to
>> provide.
>>
>> It's an open network and it will be used as most users see fit,
>> and that requires a blocksize increase wether you like it or not,
>> it's simple physics, other time wait times will become unbearable
>> for those not willing to pay the high fees, if people leave, then
>> it only mean bitcoins isn't useful, and if bitcoin isn't useful,
>> it's worthless.
>>
>>
>>
>> http://twitter.com/gubatron
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev
>> <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> <mailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I have been reading an argument saying that paying higher fees
>> would scare Bitcoin users and they would stop using it,
>> preferring bank transfers or other payment methods. This does not
>> make sense for me. If some users leave, then demand for bitcoin
>> transactions goes down and so do the fees. The others remain.
>>
>> Fee market means that an equilibrium is found between the demand
>> for bitcoin transactions and the available supply (given by the
>> block size). The fee is the price that finds this equilibrium.
>>
>> If a fee market starts to exist, the first ones to leave are the
>> spammers, probably followed by the gamblers and perhaps people
>> transacting very low amounts. The people that actually need
>> Bitcoin would remain.
>>
>> Please allow this fee market to form...
>>
>> In the absence of a functioning fee market, I will refuse to run
>> Bitcoin code that increases the block size and will do my best
>> to tell everyone I know not to upgrade towards running such code.
>> If Bitcoin succombs to the free stuff army, I will sell all the
>> coins and leave. Nothing is for free.
>>
>> I apologize for any exagerations, but I just felt strongly
>> towards expressing my opinion here. I'm only a local Bitcoin
>> trader, computer engineer, with a reasonable understanding of
>> free markets. And I'm running only one full node.
>>
>> Kind regards, Valentin
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev
>> mailing list bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> <mailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev mailing
> list bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
- --
http://abis.io ~
"a protocol concept to enable decentralization
and expansion of a giving economy, and a new social good"
https://keybase.io/odinn
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📝 Original message:-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Some additional points....
On 07/29/2015 03:54 PM, s7r via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> (...)
>
> The more people use bitcoin, the more demand we have on the market
> for BTC, the higher BTC/FIAT rate will be, more people will become
> interested in mining and so on. Bitcoin is not a
> rich-only-private-club, it's an open, global, decentralized payment
> network. The less people use it... I guess you figured it out.
Yes.
(...) Having some
> offchain solution for small transactions would be a good idea, but
> this doesn't mean we should make small transactions impossible due
> to absurd fees.
This is correct also.
>
> On 7/29/2015 8:47 PM, Raystonn . via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>>> When a category of users would get priced out because of the
>>> fee
>> market, they would be free to use any altcoin they want.
>>
>> I believe that pretty well sums up where we’re headed if
>> transaction rate is artificially limited, whether that be by
>> maximum block size limit or something else. A fee market will
>> necessarily include more than just Bitcoin. The reality is it’s
>> very easy to trade value across different blockchains, and thus a
>> fee market will bleed value from Bitcoin and give it to
>> alternative blockchains. If Bitcoin’s blocks are at maximum
>> capacity, people will exchange for something that allows them to
>> transact with a lesser fee, then make the desired payment. This
>> adds value to the alternative blockchain and removes it from
>> Bitcoin.
>>
>> Anyone thinking the fee market can be restrained to Bitcoin alone
>> is mistaken.
>>
>>
>> *From:* Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev
>> <mailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> *Sent:* Wednesday,
>> July 29, 2015 7:09 AM *To:*
>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> <mailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> *Subject:*
>> [bitcoin-dev] Răspuns: Personal opinion on the fee market from a
>> worried local trader
>>
>> I am disappointed that you did not understand my point of view.
>> Let me rephrase it for you,
>>
>> People tipping, buying 0.99$ products and gamblers that need
>> Bitcoin transactions *more* than the rest of the people will
>> afford the fees that establish the equilibrium between demand and
>> supply of Bitcoin transactions. The people are free to use they
>> money for whatever they like, but you should understand that
>> Bitcoin transactions are not free.
>>
>> I was merely attempting to point out that spammers and gamblers
>> would be the first ones that would go away. They would be free to
>> spam or gamble, but they would have to pay for it.
>>
>> When a category of users would get priced out because of the fee
>> market, they would be free to use any altcoin they want.
>>
>> Please understand that not everyone will leave. The more
>> important players will remain, those that need it the most. The
>> other players are free to use whatever altcoin they wish.
>>
>>
>> În Miercuri, 29 Iulie 2015 16:47:57, Angel Leon
>> <gubatron at gmail.com> a scris:
>>
>>
>> "the gamblers and perhaps people transacting very low amounts.
>> The people that actually need Bitcoin would remain."
>>
>> so people tipping, buying $0.99 products, and gamblers actually
>> don't need Bitcoin. Who are you to say what people need to use
>> money for? This statement goes against the freedom of
>> decentralization and financial freedom Bitcoin should be able to
>> provide.
>>
>> It's an open network and it will be used as most users see fit,
>> and that requires a blocksize increase wether you like it or not,
>> it's simple physics, other time wait times will become unbearable
>> for those not willing to pay the high fees, if people leave, then
>> it only mean bitcoins isn't useful, and if bitcoin isn't useful,
>> it's worthless.
>>
>>
>>
>> http://twitter.com/gubatron
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev
>> <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> <mailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I have been reading an argument saying that paying higher fees
>> would scare Bitcoin users and they would stop using it,
>> preferring bank transfers or other payment methods. This does not
>> make sense for me. If some users leave, then demand for bitcoin
>> transactions goes down and so do the fees. The others remain.
>>
>> Fee market means that an equilibrium is found between the demand
>> for bitcoin transactions and the available supply (given by the
>> block size). The fee is the price that finds this equilibrium.
>>
>> If a fee market starts to exist, the first ones to leave are the
>> spammers, probably followed by the gamblers and perhaps people
>> transacting very low amounts. The people that actually need
>> Bitcoin would remain.
>>
>> Please allow this fee market to form...
>>
>> In the absence of a functioning fee market, I will refuse to run
>> Bitcoin code that increases the block size and will do my best
>> to tell everyone I know not to upgrade towards running such code.
>> If Bitcoin succombs to the free stuff army, I will sell all the
>> coins and leave. Nothing is for free.
>>
>> I apologize for any exagerations, but I just felt strongly
>> towards expressing my opinion here. I'm only a local Bitcoin
>> trader, computer engineer, with a reasonable understanding of
>> free markets. And I'm running only one full node.
>>
>> Kind regards, Valentin
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev
>> mailing list bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> <mailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev mailing
> list bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
- --
http://abis.io ~
"a protocol concept to enable decentralization
and expansion of a giving economy, and a new social good"
https://keybase.io/odinn
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