darosior [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: š Original date posted:2022-02-10 š Original message:(I have not yet read the ...
š
Original date posted:2022-02-10
š Original message:(I have not yet read the recent posts on RBF but i wanted to react on the "additive feerate".)
> # Purely additive feerate bumps should never be impossible
It's not that simple. As a miner, if i have less than 1vMB of transactions in my mempool. I don't want a 10sats/vb transaction paying 100000sats by a 100sats/vb transaction paying only 10000sats.
Apart from that i very much agree with the approach of taking a step back and reframing, with CPFP being inadapted long term (wasteful, not useful for delegating fee bumping (i'm surprised i didn't mention it publicly but it makes it unsuitable for Revault for instance), and the current carve-out rule makes it only suitable for 2-party protocols), and the `diff` approach.
All that again with the caveat that i need to update myself on the recent proposals.
-------- Original Message --------
On Feb 10, 2022, 20:40, James O'Beirne via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> There's been much talk about fee-bumping lately, and for good reason -
> dynamic fee management is going to be a central part of bitcoin use as
> the mempool fills up (lord willing) and right now fee-bumping is
> fraught with difficulty and pinning peril.
>
> Gloria's recent post on the topic[0] was very lucid and highlights a
> lot of the current issues, as well as some proposals to improve the
> situation.
>
> As others have noted, the post was great. But throughout the course
> of reading it and the ensuing discussion, I became troubled by the
> increasing complexity of both the status quo and some of the
> proposed remedies.
>
> Layering on special cases, more carve-outs, and X and Y percentage
> thresholds is going to make reasoning about the mempool harder than it
> already is. Special consideration for "what should be in the next
> block" and/or the caching of block templates seems like an imposing
> dependency, dragging in a bunch of state and infrastructure to a
> question that should be solely limited to mempool feerate aggregates
> and the feerate of the particular txn package a wallet is concerned
> with.
>
> This is bad enough for protocol designers and Core developers, but
> making the situation any more intractable for "end-users" and wallet
> developers feels wrong.
>
> I thought it might be useful to step back and reframe. Here are a few
> aims that are motivated chiefly by the quality of end-user experience,
> constrained to obey incentive compatibility (i.e. miner reward, DoS
> avoidance). Forgive the abstract dalliance for a moment; I'll talk
> through concretes afterwards.
>
> # Purely additive feerate bumps should never be impossible
>
> Any user should always be able to add to the incentive to mine any
> transaction in a purely additive way. The countervailing force here
> ends up being spam prevention (a la min-relay-fee) to prevent someone
> from consuming bandwidth and mempool space with a long series of
> infinitesimal fee-bumps.
>
> A fee bump, naturally, should be given the same per-byte consideration
> as a normal Bitcoin transaction in terms of relay and block space,
> although it would be nice to come up with a more succinct
> representation. This leads to another design principle:
>
> # The bandwidth and chain space consumed by a fee-bump should be minimal
>
> Instead of prompting a rebroadcast of the original transaction for
> replacement, which contains a lot of data not new to the network, it
> makes more sense to broadcast the "diff" which is the additive
> contribution towards some txn's feerate.
>
> This dovetails with the idea that...
>
> # Special transaction structure should not be required to bump fees
>
> In an ideal design, special structural foresight would not be needed
> in order for a txn's feerate to be improved after broadcast.
>
> Anchor outputs specified solely for CPFP, which amount to many bytes of
> wasted chainspace, are a hack. It's probably uncontroversial at this
> point to say that even RBF itself is kind of a hack - a special
> sequence number should not be necessary for post-broadcast contribution
> toward feerate. Not to mention RBF's seemingly wasteful consumption of
> bandwidth due to the rebroadcast of data the network has already seen.
>
> In a sane design, no structural foresight - and certainly no wasted
> bytes in the form of unused anchor outputs - should be needed in order
> to add to a miner's reward for confirming a given transaction.
>
> Planning for fee-bumps explicitly in transaction structure also often
> winds up locking in which keys are required to bump fees, at odds
> with the idea that...
>
> # Feerate bumps should be able to come from anywhere
>
> One of the practical downsides of CPFP that I haven't seen discussed in
> this conversation is that it requires the transaction to pre-specify the
> keys needed to sign for fee bumps. This is problematic if you're, for
> example, using a vault structure that makes use of pre-signed
> transactions.
>
> What if the key you specified n the anchor outputs for a bunch of
> pre-signed txns is compromised? What if you'd like to be able to
> dynamically select the wallet that bumps fees? CPFP does you no favors
> here.
>
> There is of course a tension between allowing fee bumps to come from
> anywhere and the threat of pinning-like attacks. So we should venture
> to remove pinning as a possibility, in line with the first design
> principle I discuss.
>
> ---
>
> Coming down to earth, the "tabula rasa" thought experiment above has led
> me to favor an approach like the transaction sponsors design that Jeremy
> proposed in a prior discussion back in 2020[1].
>
> Transaction sponsors allow feerates to be bumped after a transaction's
> broadcast, regardless of the structure of the original transaction.
> No rebroadcast (wasted bandwidth) is required for the original txn data.
> No wasted chainspace on only-maybe-used prophylactic anchor outputs.
>
> The interface for end-users is very straightforward: if you want to bump
> fees, specify a transaction that contributes incrementally to package
> feerate for some txid. Simple.
>
> In the original discussion, there were a few main objections that I noted:
>
> 1. In Jeremy's original proposal, only one sponsor txn per txid is
> allowed by policy. A malicious actor could execute a pinning-like
> attack by specifying an only-slightly-helpful feerate sponsor that
> then precludes other larger bumps.
>
> I think there are some ways around this shortcoming. For example: what
> if, by policy, sponsor txns had additional constraints that
>
> - each input must be signed {SIGHASH_SINGLE,SIGHASH_NONE}|ANYONECANPAY,
> - the txn must be specified RBFable,
> - a replacement for the sponsor txn must raise the sponsor feerate,
> including ancestors (maybe this is inherent in "is RBFable," but
> I don't want to conflate absolute feerates into this).
>
> That way, there is still at most a single sponsor txn per txid in the
> mempool, but anyone can "mix in" inputs which bump the effective
> feerate of the sponsor.
>
> This may not be the exact solution we want, but I think it demonstrates
> that the sponsors design has some flexibility and merits some thinking.
>
> The second objection about sponsors was
>
> 2. (from Suhas) sponsors break the classic invariant: "once a valid
> transaction is created, it should not become invalid later on unless
> the inputs are double-spent."
>
> This doesn't seem like a huge concern to me if you consider the txid
> being sponsored as a sort of spiritual input to the sponsor. While the
> theoretical objection against broadening where one has to look in a txn
> to determine its dependencies is understandable, I don't see what the
> practical cost here is.
>
> Reorg complexity seems comparable if not identical, especially if we
> broaden sponsor rules to allow blocks to contain sponsor txns that are
> both for txids in the same block _or_ already included in the chain.
>
> This theoretical concession seems preferable to heaping more rules onto
> an already labyrinthine mempool policy that is difficult for both
> implementers and users to reason about practically and conceptually.
>
> A third objection that wasn't posed, IIRC, but almost certainly would
> be:
>
> 3. Transaction sponsors requires a soft-fork.
>
> Soft-forks are no fun, but I'll tell you what also isn't fun: being on
> the hook to model (and sometimes implement) a dizzying potpourri of
> mempool policies and special-cases. Expecting wallet implementers to
> abide by a maze of rules faithfully in order to ensure txn broadcast and
> fee management invites bugs for perpetuity and network behavior that is
> difficult to reason about a priori. Use of CPFP in the long-term also
> risks needless chain waste.
>
> If a soft-fork is the cost of cleaning up this essential process,
> consideration should be given to paying it as a one-time cost. This
> topic merits a separate post, but consider that in the 5 years leading
> up to the 2017 SegWit drama, we averaged about a soft-fork a year.
> Uncontroversial, "safe" changes to the consensus protocol shouldn't be
> out of the question when significant practical benefit is plain to see.
>
> ---
>
> I hope this message has added some framing to the discussion on fees,
> as well prompting other participants to go back and give the
> transaction sponsor proposal a serious look. The sponsors interface is
> about the simplest I can imagine for wallets, and it seems easy to
> reason about for implementers on Core and elsewhere.
>
> I'm not out to propose soft-forks lightly, but the current complexity
> in fee management feels untenable, and as evidenced by all the
> discussion lately, fees are an increasingly crucial part of the system.
>
> [0]: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-January/019817.html
> [1]: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2020-September/018168.html
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š Original message:(I have not yet read the recent posts on RBF but i wanted to react on the "additive feerate".)
> # Purely additive feerate bumps should never be impossible
It's not that simple. As a miner, if i have less than 1vMB of transactions in my mempool. I don't want a 10sats/vb transaction paying 100000sats by a 100sats/vb transaction paying only 10000sats.
Apart from that i very much agree with the approach of taking a step back and reframing, with CPFP being inadapted long term (wasteful, not useful for delegating fee bumping (i'm surprised i didn't mention it publicly but it makes it unsuitable for Revault for instance), and the current carve-out rule makes it only suitable for 2-party protocols), and the `diff` approach.
All that again with the caveat that i need to update myself on the recent proposals.
-------- Original Message --------
On Feb 10, 2022, 20:40, James O'Beirne via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> There's been much talk about fee-bumping lately, and for good reason -
> dynamic fee management is going to be a central part of bitcoin use as
> the mempool fills up (lord willing) and right now fee-bumping is
> fraught with difficulty and pinning peril.
>
> Gloria's recent post on the topic[0] was very lucid and highlights a
> lot of the current issues, as well as some proposals to improve the
> situation.
>
> As others have noted, the post was great. But throughout the course
> of reading it and the ensuing discussion, I became troubled by the
> increasing complexity of both the status quo and some of the
> proposed remedies.
>
> Layering on special cases, more carve-outs, and X and Y percentage
> thresholds is going to make reasoning about the mempool harder than it
> already is. Special consideration for "what should be in the next
> block" and/or the caching of block templates seems like an imposing
> dependency, dragging in a bunch of state and infrastructure to a
> question that should be solely limited to mempool feerate aggregates
> and the feerate of the particular txn package a wallet is concerned
> with.
>
> This is bad enough for protocol designers and Core developers, but
> making the situation any more intractable for "end-users" and wallet
> developers feels wrong.
>
> I thought it might be useful to step back and reframe. Here are a few
> aims that are motivated chiefly by the quality of end-user experience,
> constrained to obey incentive compatibility (i.e. miner reward, DoS
> avoidance). Forgive the abstract dalliance for a moment; I'll talk
> through concretes afterwards.
>
> # Purely additive feerate bumps should never be impossible
>
> Any user should always be able to add to the incentive to mine any
> transaction in a purely additive way. The countervailing force here
> ends up being spam prevention (a la min-relay-fee) to prevent someone
> from consuming bandwidth and mempool space with a long series of
> infinitesimal fee-bumps.
>
> A fee bump, naturally, should be given the same per-byte consideration
> as a normal Bitcoin transaction in terms of relay and block space,
> although it would be nice to come up with a more succinct
> representation. This leads to another design principle:
>
> # The bandwidth and chain space consumed by a fee-bump should be minimal
>
> Instead of prompting a rebroadcast of the original transaction for
> replacement, which contains a lot of data not new to the network, it
> makes more sense to broadcast the "diff" which is the additive
> contribution towards some txn's feerate.
>
> This dovetails with the idea that...
>
> # Special transaction structure should not be required to bump fees
>
> In an ideal design, special structural foresight would not be needed
> in order for a txn's feerate to be improved after broadcast.
>
> Anchor outputs specified solely for CPFP, which amount to many bytes of
> wasted chainspace, are a hack. It's probably uncontroversial at this
> point to say that even RBF itself is kind of a hack - a special
> sequence number should not be necessary for post-broadcast contribution
> toward feerate. Not to mention RBF's seemingly wasteful consumption of
> bandwidth due to the rebroadcast of data the network has already seen.
>
> In a sane design, no structural foresight - and certainly no wasted
> bytes in the form of unused anchor outputs - should be needed in order
> to add to a miner's reward for confirming a given transaction.
>
> Planning for fee-bumps explicitly in transaction structure also often
> winds up locking in which keys are required to bump fees, at odds
> with the idea that...
>
> # Feerate bumps should be able to come from anywhere
>
> One of the practical downsides of CPFP that I haven't seen discussed in
> this conversation is that it requires the transaction to pre-specify the
> keys needed to sign for fee bumps. This is problematic if you're, for
> example, using a vault structure that makes use of pre-signed
> transactions.
>
> What if the key you specified n the anchor outputs for a bunch of
> pre-signed txns is compromised? What if you'd like to be able to
> dynamically select the wallet that bumps fees? CPFP does you no favors
> here.
>
> There is of course a tension between allowing fee bumps to come from
> anywhere and the threat of pinning-like attacks. So we should venture
> to remove pinning as a possibility, in line with the first design
> principle I discuss.
>
> ---
>
> Coming down to earth, the "tabula rasa" thought experiment above has led
> me to favor an approach like the transaction sponsors design that Jeremy
> proposed in a prior discussion back in 2020[1].
>
> Transaction sponsors allow feerates to be bumped after a transaction's
> broadcast, regardless of the structure of the original transaction.
> No rebroadcast (wasted bandwidth) is required for the original txn data.
> No wasted chainspace on only-maybe-used prophylactic anchor outputs.
>
> The interface for end-users is very straightforward: if you want to bump
> fees, specify a transaction that contributes incrementally to package
> feerate for some txid. Simple.
>
> In the original discussion, there were a few main objections that I noted:
>
> 1. In Jeremy's original proposal, only one sponsor txn per txid is
> allowed by policy. A malicious actor could execute a pinning-like
> attack by specifying an only-slightly-helpful feerate sponsor that
> then precludes other larger bumps.
>
> I think there are some ways around this shortcoming. For example: what
> if, by policy, sponsor txns had additional constraints that
>
> - each input must be signed {SIGHASH_SINGLE,SIGHASH_NONE}|ANYONECANPAY,
> - the txn must be specified RBFable,
> - a replacement for the sponsor txn must raise the sponsor feerate,
> including ancestors (maybe this is inherent in "is RBFable," but
> I don't want to conflate absolute feerates into this).
>
> That way, there is still at most a single sponsor txn per txid in the
> mempool, but anyone can "mix in" inputs which bump the effective
> feerate of the sponsor.
>
> This may not be the exact solution we want, but I think it demonstrates
> that the sponsors design has some flexibility and merits some thinking.
>
> The second objection about sponsors was
>
> 2. (from Suhas) sponsors break the classic invariant: "once a valid
> transaction is created, it should not become invalid later on unless
> the inputs are double-spent."
>
> This doesn't seem like a huge concern to me if you consider the txid
> being sponsored as a sort of spiritual input to the sponsor. While the
> theoretical objection against broadening where one has to look in a txn
> to determine its dependencies is understandable, I don't see what the
> practical cost here is.
>
> Reorg complexity seems comparable if not identical, especially if we
> broaden sponsor rules to allow blocks to contain sponsor txns that are
> both for txids in the same block _or_ already included in the chain.
>
> This theoretical concession seems preferable to heaping more rules onto
> an already labyrinthine mempool policy that is difficult for both
> implementers and users to reason about practically and conceptually.
>
> A third objection that wasn't posed, IIRC, but almost certainly would
> be:
>
> 3. Transaction sponsors requires a soft-fork.
>
> Soft-forks are no fun, but I'll tell you what also isn't fun: being on
> the hook to model (and sometimes implement) a dizzying potpourri of
> mempool policies and special-cases. Expecting wallet implementers to
> abide by a maze of rules faithfully in order to ensure txn broadcast and
> fee management invites bugs for perpetuity and network behavior that is
> difficult to reason about a priori. Use of CPFP in the long-term also
> risks needless chain waste.
>
> If a soft-fork is the cost of cleaning up this essential process,
> consideration should be given to paying it as a one-time cost. This
> topic merits a separate post, but consider that in the 5 years leading
> up to the 2017 SegWit drama, we averaged about a soft-fork a year.
> Uncontroversial, "safe" changes to the consensus protocol shouldn't be
> out of the question when significant practical benefit is plain to see.
>
> ---
>
> I hope this message has added some framing to the discussion on fees,
> as well prompting other participants to go back and give the
> transaction sponsor proposal a serious look. The sponsors interface is
> about the simplest I can imagine for wallets, and it seems easy to
> reason about for implementers on Core and elsewhere.
>
> I'm not out to propose soft-forks lightly, but the current complexity
> in fee management feels untenable, and as evidenced by all the
> discussion lately, fees are an increasingly crucial part of the system.
>
> [0]: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-January/019817.html
> [1]: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2020-September/018168.html
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