paulo on Nostr: Had to extract the transcript of the podcast, then translate it. Not ideal but ...

Had to extract the transcript of the podcast, then translate it. Not ideal but it’ll give you an idea of what they discussed.

Translated transcript 👇

this this saying of bitcoin fixes everything out there is very nice and looks really nice on shirts But there is a debate there if it really fixes everything many times the perception that can be created and I think that it is being created in a certain way of the Salvadoran has to do with the fact that bitcoin is for millionaires, we bitcoiners like to talk a lot about bitcoin but we don't like to spend it but I do believe that also a failure was the adoption as legal tender and I know that that is more controversial in the community only bitcoins They will tell you if I would implement it again from the outside it was believed that the conceptual existential battle of bitcoin was being fought here and inside we are discussing very specific things we were not interested in the subject Hello how are you lunaticoin and welcome to my podcast in September 2021 the bitcoin law came into force in El Salvador and with it its legal tender the obligation to be accepted as a form of payment in stores and the possibility of paying taxes with it It has been more than 3 years since that and that is why on my recent visit to the country of purple and gold skies I was very interested in knowing What was the aftermath of their adoption? What had been its repercussions with the great, the good, the bad and also the ugly, all in raw form, directly from the hand of Salvadoran testimonies involved in different parts of their adoption and for this reason I mentioned it to my great friend Napo with whom, thanks to the support of Plan B Forum El Salvador, we were able to organize a meeting that ended up becoming one of my vital experiences bco Why well, for many reasons but because five Salvadoran people of height agreed to attend the panel, such as Leonor Selva, representative of the private company during the entry into force of the bitcoin law, Gerardo and Evelin from the bitcoin community Berlin, Guillermo Contreras, CEO of dito Banks, a Salvadoran bitcoin bank and also ishikawa, a local bitcoin without mincing words, that on the side of the panelists but then on the side of the attendees there were 50 places that were sold out in an hour, then we added 10 more and they were sold out in 5 minutes and with that and a lot of desire, the atmosphere I can't tell you because there are no words to tell you describe How it felt or something like bitcoin learning among friends and with the feeling of listening to something unique that luckily I recorded and that I bring you here so that you can also enjoy the bad news is that during the recording there was a technical failure up to four microphones were working but one of them failed and did not record anything when I went to connect it to the computer then immediately blank as if it had not been there luckily it was the one I used most of the time and the guests are affected only on specific occasions but oh well That does not mean that nothing is missing from the conversation everything is just that at some moments you will hear worse audio having to take it from another microphone that was further away and beforeleave you with the podt I can only thank you for all the comments I've received During the daily pods that I've been publishing from El Salvador and also for sharing this and other episodes on the social network of your choice This helps me a lot too I want to thank my tireless patreons there you are nonstop and also my sponsors hodel hodel Coin kite bit refill and se hyper media that allow me to make these trips and be where things happen A thousand thanks to all Well now yes Get ready for a festival of bitcoin use cases real use cases and also a lesson in humility and reality I feel bad for the English but now bitcoin speaks Spanish without further ado I leave you with the eh what a cool Well thank you very much We already knew that we were going to start late but I think we're going to have a great time We're going to be debating for about an hour and a quarter we'll see how the debate goes and well with Napo Napo when we imagined this or when we thought about this first of all I didn't imagine that we were going to to have these speakers in Elo, not this, that they came, that they agreed, incredible, incredible, I don't know what you told them, I don't know how you convinced them. I didn't tell them that we were going to give away here, I'm not going to give, well, no. That was the truth, the truth is that it was very interesting to think about each one of them, and the truth is that we believe that we have really brought people who are going to present their point and will know what to say, and v. Okay, it's a tremendous panel. So, well, thank you very much to you all for coming, also to you for coming to see what you have to say. Today we are going to be talking about adoption, the aftermath of adoption in El Salvador, they have passed, well, the bitcoin law, I think it started or came into operation in September 2021 if I remember correctly. So here we are, we are 3 years and some months and two TR months since it started, or two months since it started, and the idea is to be able to talk after an introduction, all of them, and that we can talk about whether adoption has been something positive for El Salvador or not, or what are the light and dark sides, no, something, yes, something. I want to make it clear that in El Salvador there has never been a meetup anywhere like we're going to do right now. Ah, that's right, you're all really privileged because we're going to talk about what's good and what's bad so let's get started. I mean, well, let's start, let's start. So let's pass the microphone, maybe Isi can start on this side and we'll go here. And what I'm going to ask you is if I'm going to sit there now so that you can see me better and not have to watch out, eh, but if we can start with a personal introduction and what is your relationship with ready. Well, hello everyone, welcome, I'm Isi, I think I've known some of the others, maybe not some, eh, since 2021, which I think is when the bitcoin revolution started a bit here in El Salvador, I'm eh. Well, I consider myself100% bitcoin not maximalist But perhaps with thoughts eh stronger than maximalism eh And well for quite some time now I have been contributing I feel from the constructive educational part and from different aspects in what I am allowed, true in what I can Well Hello good evening I am Leo Leonor Selva and I am honestly not a member of the bitcoin community but in 2021 when the law was introduced I held the position of being the representative of the largest private business association in El Salvador So let's say that they invited me precisely because we had to live eh How was the adoption from the point of view of the private sector and the traditional economy How do we handle this whole process the good the bad and the ugly eh nothing I mean having said that, well I am a bitcoin user I am a bitcoin investor but personal animal and that's it How good how good that you became a bitcoin investor good evening I am Guillermo Contreras eh I have had eh the fortune of being at the head of dit Banks and dit Banks we also had the privilege of being the first company that had the bitcoin license in El Salvador and for better or worse that meant putting our face to many of the regulatory issues that did not exist in the country before and that allowed us to understand many issues, understand the user from day one eh expand to other countries now we are in six countries and we have been capitalizing on all the experiences we have had around bitcoin and the community So delighted to be here and I hope it will be a very pleasant talk Hello good evening thanks to Napo for the invitation My name is Gerardo Linares I am Salvadoran eh bitcoin depends on who you ask because there are people who like to give credentials and say bosos bitcoin vosos it does not depend on who you ask but I do consider myself bitcoin and I have worked for almost two years in the adoption of bitcoin in Berlin a small town in the mountains of Usulután I am a founder together with Evely and nothing for that that is why they called us home thanks Hello everyone Thank you very much for the invitation too Napo eh I feel privileged to be able to be here Sharing with all of you eh Salvadoran by birth Here I grew up Here I have lived my whole life and I even got involved in the adoption of bitcoin just in the year 2023 or so when we started the Berlin project and we have been working on this for the last almost 2 years very good Well with this introduction I would like to go through I think we will be able to make the most of this hour if we start with the faith side because from the outside well much of El Salvador at times has been like a single topic in foreign bitcoin communities and it would give the impression many times that it has been a success right now there is talk about adoption at many levels not at the level of the people of that merchant who suddenly had to accept bitcoin and did so and there has also been talk of adoption in El Salvador for political reasonsand at the state level Because right now the United States with Trump is talking about the strategic reserve Well it is always said you see El Salvador did it and right now everyone is doing it no eh I am going to ask for silence if possible if someone wants to speak again so that they can go outside then I wanted to ask you starting perhaps with you who are touching the street eh if you consider that the adoption of bitcoin has had something bad in El Salvador whatever the focus that you consider Yes from the beginning We always say the idea of ​​adopting bitcoin as legal tender El Salvador I think it has been the best idea that the government could have had eh Because it came from the government then the implementation has been one the the chivo wallet the way it works or does not work eh it is too politicized I feel when you go to the street and try to convince people they believe that bitcoin is chivo wallet it is the government and you have to get them out of there to start educating them start trying to really explain to them what bitcoin is eh I think the government has spent a lot of resources on the bitcoin law and they have been wasted resources eh well from there we can start and And yes there are many things that surely could be done better I know that it is easy to talk about time because it is very easy to tell it right that really make the decisions when they are happening but if we have to describe what happened there are many things that could have been done better on your side like to listen to the rest but on your side you would say that the problem eh came more from how those public resources were allocated so that bitcoin triphase And that association that was made of bitcoin with something governmental and not as something that came from below Yes of course what happens is that people see you talk to them about bitcoin and the first thing they say is so much money that they have spent on the maintenance of the Chivo ATMs and so much money that was lost When they gave money to people to open their wallet Eh This is from the Government bitcoin is Nayib's currency we have heard a lot of misconceptions that we really when again when we are going to try to educate people or teach them about bitcoin no no no you take them from scratch you take them from a negative experience of what they have been exposed to bitcoin when the first contact that the vast majority of Salvadorans have had with bitcoin was with chivo wallet and chiv, there are also people who had their identity stolen, there are people who had problems opening their wallet who sent a transaction and it never arrived and tried to call customer service, which is more money from the State and in all these concentrations the maintenance of the ATMs, hey, they have that bad experience that they did not resolve, my uncle was already scammed and it is a lot of negative things which one has to start to get people out of there so that they start tryingoccupy bitcoin then again eh la la the idea of ​​bitcoin in El Salvador I think it served from a lot of things from the El Salvador reserve the way we were known as the country of the gangs Now we are the country of bitcoin that change of mentality in the people many positive things in the adoption of bitcoin which is what is being discussed today the government has really had a more negative than positive impact on the Well I have mixed positions regarding whether it was a success was a failure the issue of the wallet file there is something that we understood and it was that reaching the masses is not an easy task there are some things that we must recognize whether we like it or not with the issue of the wallet file and from our business perspective we see it that way because it is so difficult to cause the massification of a product suddenly and let us remember that El Salvador still has 65% of the unbanked population and the educational level of our population on average is sixth grade sixth level And this teaches you many things How does a digital medium manage to put a digital wallet with a new currency in the hands of 4 million people suddenly From that perspective I think that the having put $0 given away It was not wrong because what it allowed is that many people for the $30 obviously adopted the technology eh today you ask any Salvadoran in El Salvador what is a digital wallet and they know it before the $ nobody knew it So from my perspective it fulfilled a first purpose which was that people discovered that it was a digital wallet and that you could have money in it the second purpose that I think was also fulfilled with those $0 in bitcoin was that the people on foot the masses and I'm not talking about bitcoin I'm not talking about those who have a broader level of education could really realize that what they were seeing in their wallet could really be translated into cash and that they could use it In other words, it had value I think that eh It was a correct bet however the marketing deployment to date and it is very easy to say now that we are going backwards It was totally wrong the way in which the market was deployed was wrong eh It did not involve at the time eh the private company in the correct way there had to have been first an adoption and education at a level business that in the end were those who were going to receive all the bitcoin payments before being able to put it in the hands of the user was something that had to be simultaneous some say What comes first the chicken or the egg In other words first you put it in the company or first you put it in the hands of the person eh Well I think it goes hand in hand but putting it or enabling the businesses eh It didn't happen and it wasn't an easy task and that eh generated a lot of problems it generated a lot of eh dissatisfaction in the users eh the majority what they did was take those 0 go to the ATM take them out convert them and spend it there wasof the application well it was not the best nor can we criticize it From that perspective because putting in 60 days those 4 million of a product that had not even been tested in that way was a titanic task they had a lot of learning they had many errors they had many failures but well I think that that is the negative part of the adoption is that I would like to hear from Leonor because of course with that adoption the private part that Guillo has mentioned now it is interesting to know your opinion on this yes let's see I think that yes definitely the implementation for us from the point of view of the private sector was disastrous it is little eh even starting from the development of the wallet file that is to say we spoke and it seemed we were very polarized but I must say outside the media and sometimes even hidden from the government all the different companies that were contracted for the implementation of the wallet file ended up looking for us to talk and we were also interested in a good implementation of this eh And the truth is that the time pressure was ridiculous both for them and for us can you explain this about the time pressure perhaps from the outside we do not understand that is to say all the companies that came here to execute the chib wallet project They said it couldn't be done in less than 6 months and the whole rollout I mean since Saturday since that Saturday that was 10 in the morning I was in my pajamas at home and the wallet file was announced the whole process including the adoption by your private company was 3 months so from there you are eh making the project fail because you are not listening to your implementers both us who were going to be the ones who were going to be accepting chiv eh bitcoin As to those who were running your your your application but I would say something I think one eh see I think that in terms of marketing the best campaign for the country has been this one of bitcoin to change the face after this leveraged by the change in security that was already another more concrete change and already positions us differently But I do believe that also a failure was the adoption as legal tender and that is more controversial in the community Why first I am going to say El Salvador was not the right country to do this experiment we had a population with extremely low education and low level of digitalization and watch out this the issue of banking is attributed a lot to chiv wallet but since the pandemic there had been increases of 70% of digitalization that was already coming and but two you had a population that is not that is hypersensitive to volatility and that is where the difference where that is I hate to say we told you but we told you from the beginning I have seen Salvadorans in an ATM crying because they cannot withdraw the 3 dollars of the salary because it is the commission that the bank does not let you withdraw and they expected to earn $ I have seen adult men cry So it is a population so poor that it does not tolerate thevulnerability and I remember perfectly they gave away the 30 40 40 and there something happened Quite unfortunate for the government that is that after they gave it away a week the price of bitcoin went down and it spent three months down and the government said wait don't give it away don't change it eh It's going to go up it's going to go up you're talking about a population that also came to December That was like in October November that is to say there is no Salvadoran consumer that can endure December without going into debt much less saving $0 so eh I think that's where the negative experience of the consumer goes and I think that has probably been the worst eh effect for the bitcoin community is that the consumer had a traumatic effect and the private company too because of how it was implemented then people have rejection what you say now educating is twice as difficult well eh look from my perspective Obviously the focus of the talk right now has to do with a matter of choice and I suppose that we are going to talk about the positive points but the focus of the question right now has to do with a purely adoption and I always say at the request level at the big bitcoin events let's talk about the most recent 2022 23 eh I think well I have had the opportunity At least that some organizers of this event read me and my specific request has been that to obtain a realistic appreciation at the country level I mean not from outside I understand We have a good part of foreigners here and the perception of foreigners may be totally different from the perception of a Salvadoran per se then the specific request for me in these events that manage to host a good number of foreigners is look If we want to make a global evaluation of bitcoin they have to integrate the actors of Salvadoran society not only just bitcoin bitcoin we live in a bubble many times then but to know the reality of El Salvador per se you need to involve in debates aaa people who are inside or I have seen a speech from El Salvador is winning or I mean but it is winning for who For some people or it is winning for the poorest person in a certain sector of a certain city That is the question that should be answered right And that cannot be answered by a foreigner it will be answered by someone who is eh immersed in the situation per se eh I am a developer eh I have studied economics, that is, I have different expertise and I can tell you something when eh from my very personal perspective, that is to say eh bitcoin I do not relate it so much with politics eh Although what has been said Now eh we are seeing it That is to say and the entire relationship at the level of El Salvador that has been made has to do with a purely political issue, that is to say 100% political but outside of that let's say from the point of view that I would not have wanted as an individual person like bitcoin that bitcoin eh was forced Because if you ask me from my perception at the level of success speaking 3years later it would have been much more effective a topic of a pilot project in a specific place bitcoin Beach was the pilot project that was taken at the level of Salvador because it meets certain specific characteristics then what In my opinion from the perception what I can see 3 years later and with what we are Knowing is that part of what we are experiencing that can be called failure not failure has to do with the form of implementation the idea the people who surrounded the project eh at the level of its implementation because Well I agree here a little with Guillermo Guillermo true about the subject of deas How are you going to implement something for 4 million in El Salvador Well but if you have launched it in such a way is that you were improvising because one way is that a project can be successful with a certain degree of errors it will turn out but it cannot turn out with such a high degree of errors that can only demonstrate that you did not know the market that you did not know what you were getting into or that you were improvising So if to me as a developer given the precepts that we have of how for example the wallet that served as an entry of interaction at the level of with all Salvadorans, which is the government wallet that we know and that was built in 40 days, that is, that alone tells me a lot and that tells me improvisation. So all of us who work, I don't know if there are more computer scientists here, we know that to get a project up and running you need a pilot test, you need to put in the stress, you need to consider various factors. So it is not worth going into depth right now on all the personal problems that we already know at the level of the wallet that was the entry point for someone to know bitcoin and I believe that something very important that the colleagues from bitcoin Berlin have mentioned here and that in 2021 I began to perceive in the first instances of the different ones. Look, it was that the perception in the first months of all the Salvadorans related to bitcoin was lost, that is, that interaction at the level of Education that could have been had with a greater impact was in a certain way trampled on, right? Because you approached people or you approach them now and most likely the conception that they may have of bitcoin is totally far from the purpose that you may want with that person to implement it, so then you have to measure another important topic I think we are going to get into the positive topics right But within when you eh I gave myself something if it is at the level of success failure that something you are going to measure based on results and when I for example talk about the result topic I am talking about at the country adoption level right those results for me eh or the basis of the result you have to measure based on the promises made by the president himself So if 3 years later I measured the president's promises related to bitcoin at the country adoption level and you compare it with now then I think the data would have to make sense by itselfonly truth I put a very specific case last data for example El Salvador regardless of the year 2025 we have a very strong dependence on the issue of remittances, that is, I believe that 20.2% of the gross domestic product that depends on remittances remains, only that case for me would have been successful the issue of remittances that was intended to be all channeled through chivo wallet that in fact what is in chivo wallet is not even bitcoin right that would be another topic of discussion but let's say all that that you would have managed to capture at the level of remittances that the president said that El Salvador was going to save 430 million If that had been achieved to capture and channel it would have been a starting point so that things could improve and one last piece of information for Guillermo when in 2021 the bitcoin law is launched El Salvador September 7, 2021 the bitcoins come to the two conferences that there were and several of the bitcoins that came excited eh with many expectations made suggestions to the government of what to do to improve those suggestions were never implemented at the level of nor execution planning right So eh They are part of the criticisms I personally have related to the part of the adoption at the bitcoin level Salado returning to bitcoin bitcoin because I understand that yes we could value and it could be another debate not of the success of these proposals of the president No if we could consider that they have been successful or not and but returning to bitcoin as like that thing that is neutral that satoshi put it in motion in a way that nobody could get their hands on it Eh Sure you now said let's talk about the positive things and that is what I wanted to ask you perhaps with a more general question and I leave you If you want to go deeper into some aspect but it is eh Now we have become very pessimistic And if someone only listens to this first part then damn well what a failure no but I would like to ask you if you consider in your opinion and from your perspective that as we have seen is very different for each one the one you have if you consider that bitcoin continues to be clearly positive or in other words if it continues to have a positive balance Better said for El Salvador or if you could go back you would say Look no neither mix it up Do what you have to do but don't mix it up or in what position are you maybe starting with you and we make the return well be brief please extremely positive right within those positive things Leonor mentioned it and I think that eh the biggest bet eh And it is the result of why all of you are here bitcoin then at the country brand level the impact is not incalculable in a certain way How many countries determine hundreds of millions for their advertising campaigns or to promote the country brand and the success does not come bitcoin at the country brand level has been totally impressive but here come some questions also that we are seeing the issue of the Salvadoran benefit but at the country level right then then important things ofsuccess for example at the tourism level eh it is worth emphasizing I think that El Salvador has grown 8% at the tourism level at the country level but the important thing at the tourism level is how much at the tourism level in growth it is benefiting the country as a whole because it can be said well there are quite a few tourists coming they come they spend bitcoin but at the level of that in the general population when will the population be able to perceive that because there is an important fact many times the perception that can be created and I think that it is being created in a certain way of the Salvadoran has to do with that bitcoin is for millionaires and that those who are taking advantage of the bitcoin benefits at the country level are people who have resources eh over and above so I think that that is not a perception but it is a reality that a lot of people have eh in the common truth related to the issue of tourism eh people who come and who are investing at the country level before you pass the microphone just with one answer if you would not put bitcoin back in 2021 I mean are you okay with this having happened or not yes Leonor well eh Let's see I think it has to be said and in measurable terms, tourism is the only sector in which an improvement has objectively been seen that I could associate with bitcoin and that I associate with this repositioning of the brand, but then if you look at it in economic terms, I return to the issue of country benefit, betting that all Salvadorans did put taxes, that is, it was not that it was a free advertising campaign of what is known to have cost at least 470 million of what is known to be true, cheap for what is a country campaign, a third of what we are going to go into debt with the fund right now, seeing it borrowed and But having said that, I would say tourism, country brand positioning and so on. I recognize the emergence of an economic sector, that is, an economic sector that moves the needle in GDP, no, but it is an economic sector that also brings innovation, per se, that I think is positive and there I do like to say that I like the direction that the government has given in the last two years, which is more to bitcoin as its spearhead for the promotion of digital assets or and to have a framework digital asset regulatory And be an H of innovation more than the bitcoin law because the bitcoin law in particular or rather and it was two pages what it brought was mandatory legal tender So I understand it as marketing because it was the first idea but really I also think it is a lesson for the implementation that what has really worked for El Salvador in the last 2s 3 years has been rather that it started to do the real task and rather regulate a digital asset than bitcoin that seems to be more its virtues than as legal tender Interesting but before you pass the same question that I asked Isi would you bring bitcoin back in 2021 Or do you think you would save it I would take it Guillermo they have left you the land sown hereNow I start at the end if I go back to put and you have to understand how economies work and it is not that simple let's understand something number one undoubtedly let's recognize the the Renaissance of the country brand of El Salvador along with the improvement in security and well that put us in a different perspective and that is why now I say that the only danger of El Salvador is that you come and fall in love with El Salvador and stay to live here is a quite real danger eh also but we have to understand how investments work and how banking works for me the greatest benefit that bitcoin generated in the population is that it allowed to provide the unbanked with easy tools to be able to start operating in the traditional financial world banking has historically had something that in El Salvador is known as simple accounts simplified accounts in which you only need a document to open it and in theory it was a process that took you 3 minutes to do it but it did not happen the level of adoption of the simplified account in El Salvador was two not to say it ridiculous added to the fact that you had strong restrictions for that to happen because the Banks are not interested in the unbanked sector and it is not because they do not want to, I do not want to demonize the banks but as I said you have to understand that the banks collect funds from the public and use those funds to lend them to the public in order to do that which is an activity called financial collection and intermediation, there are very strict rules defined by the superintendence of the financial system, some of those rules are that you cannot lend money to someone who does not have a specific credit category or who does not have the specific collateral to be able to lend that money, so even if the banks wanted to serve the unbanked they could not and we did not have a regulation that would allow us to provide these people in less than 5 minutes with a financial tool with which we could give them access to these products, any person in El Salvador can tell you how difficult it is and with this I do not want to minimize the profession, I say this with great respect, being a bricklayer for example and arriving at the end of your day sweaty and dirty and trying to go through the doors of a bank to open an account, if they let you in you will not be able to open that account and they will put 1 schemes on you and that bring the receipt and bring the financial statements it's crazy that's something that The V regulation allowed us to really design tools that today do allow us to do financial inclusion in less than 5 minutes Second Point so as not to go on too long How investments work Okay the first step was to change the country's brand and let investors come perhaps the population expected that in January bitcoin would be approved that in March the country's reputation would change and that in December we would see skyscrapers already built that doesn't happen like that from the perspective of an investor What happens when you have 100 million in thepocket and you decide to go to El Salvador and build a skyscraper good First let me tell you that I'm going to wait a year to see what happened in the country I'm not going to take 50 million and because of the enthusiasm that bitcoin was created in March I'm going to build a building and build a housing development of 300 million it's not a matter of risk a matter of risk level the first thing you do is be prudent what do you do you wait a year you wait you see you understand what happens after that year when from the perspective of an investor you say yes I'm interested El Salvador I liked what happened security changed there is an immense potential in tourism and I'm going to invest what is the first step to do a pre-feasibility study of investment how long does it take you to do a pre-feasibility study of investment and with this we will reach the 3 years that we have of adoption it takes you 6 months 8 months to do a pre-feasibility study to decide if you are going to do a project there how long does it take you to obtain the permits it takes you another 6 months you've already been a year later it's your turn legally structure, lower that money and hire the people who are going to do the project, there you spent another six months, yes, they approved the permits, well, to cut a long story short, just this week that passed we had the opportunity to see the entire projection of the country thanks to the latest approvals of the last quarter of the Metropolitan Planning Office of San Salvador and there are 3 billion dollars approved in vertical projects, housing developments and constructions. The last two years the big complaint was that the investment did not arrive. Foreign investment has been negative but it was brewing. Today we are going to see it. Today comes a totally different challenge, which is to get that money because the banks cannot fill those 3 billion, they manage to fill 1,000 and that is what has happened in recent weeks. There are 2 billion missing that must be filled. They will not be able to securitize to build because the Salvadoran stock market does not have enough deep liquidity to be able to fill those 000 million. And here comes the second part: how are we going to get that money by organizing it and looking for it abroad? So it is a process, not we are going to put Von in January and we are going to see the airports at the end of the year, a process to generate confidence, so yes, to put it again. Yes, well, I, like Guillermo, am going to start at the end. I would put bitcoin again, eh, I totally agree with many of the opinions that I think it was the best decision that could have been made, and well, everyone has their own thoughts on how it could have been done better, now that this is over, eh, concretizing. Many of the things that are positive for me on the adoption side, but specifically speaking of initiatives that have come out in the country that if bitcoin were not legal tender here they would not have existed, ditan k1 cubo Plus Plan B, here in El Salvador we have, I think, around there.I saw a couple of students, well they were students and now they are involved in providing education to El Salvador, so eh, we are not going to expect it to happen overnight and yes, eh, the implementation was a mistake. And this and that, but now people are being educated, so probably from the education that is being given right now we are going to start to see fruits, we are going to start to see educators, we are going to start to see more developers, and in the country that did not happen before. I studied a degree in computing, I never worked in my career because there were probably no opportunities, poorly paid salaries, but now you do have a chance that if you are learning something you can implement it, so eh, I see a lot of positivity in that part of the fact that young people especially are having opportunities and not only here, that is, they are visiting other countries, they are having opportunities with foreign companies and foreign companies coming here that are going to give jobs as well, so I do see something positive on that side as well, and now a moment for hodel hoodle and coinkite hodel hoodle is the website from which you can get Ultra vitaminized bitcoin from other individuals without giving information to centralized databases. leaving everything between the individual who sells And you who receive and well also jodel hodel what does he do as an arbitrator so that nobody leaves with what is not his a reflection that I had while in El Salvador was that all those bitcoins that were spending their sats in Berlin in the zonte or San Salvador should be using private bitcoin not bitcoin bought outside of centralized exchanges that are axes with accounting And the thing is that bitcoin ultravitam mined is freedom in the sense that you do not have to worry about the association of personal data with what you are doing And it is the closest thing to Cash that exists So I ask you how will you get your fractions of bitcoin Take a look at hodel hodel and discover the Ultra vitaminized freedom and to round off The Fuck you Money you will want to get yourself a safe safe where you can accumulate that intergenerational digital wealth and the one that I use and enjoy doing it is a colcar q a call carar q from coinkite in a call carar not only will you be able to start the safe custody of your bitcoin but it will also be your inseparable companion in the fall by the different burrows like the spfr cior multi signature or minis Script because with one you set the limit, raise the security level of your bitcoins by following the link in the description and use the code lunaticoin in capital letters to get a discount on your digital safe and now back with the Spanish meeting in El Salvador, great, I loved this exhibition, I won't be here and now I'm just hanging around here because I think each one of you brings a focus and I love it, eye, I love the no, eh, I love Leonor's no because I think that there is a lot to be gained from and to understand the why, butI want you one thing that I suppose you'll be fed up with hearing but it's the view from outside and I also want to know what you think about that view if we're totally blind or if we swallow all the propaganda or you tell me but I mean from outside maybe I already as I've been coming or I mean I have a realistic view from outside no but the reality is that I do buy the thesis that bitcoin has been a country brand campaign you said eh that it was 470 million and that's it you told me well it's half of what we just asked the international monetary fund I say well yes that's ok but thinking I don't know how much Saudi Arabia has paid to promote itself in Formula 1 worldwide I mean I don't know how much that contract will be but 470 million It seems to me that it's not even enough for the first page of the paper that they signed no so for And that is something that puts you on a global level so bitcoin in this case yes 470 is perhaps a lot for El Salvador but I get the feeling that it's little for a campaign to global level from outside It seems incredible to me what a country of I don't know how many million inhabitants it has now has done, but I remember that 4 and a half or so, I don't know if it's already c se Well, a country of 6 million that has a constant position at the media level is mind-blowing at the country level. I think it's undeniable what bitcoin has achieved. The thing is whether bitcoin has succeeded as legal tender. And whether it has validated the option that I don't know is whether this idea that many bitcoiners had has been validated, that bitcoin can be a day-to-day currency, not a currency to pay off your debts, to buy bread, for whatever. No, there I think that it has put many of the ideas into doubt, but I think that for the better, that is, it has given us a lesson, this adoption of what we can use bitcoin for and what we may not be able to use bitcoin for, but I know that it's not just for bitcoin, but I will return to the country 3 and a half years after coming for the first time. Hey, this is incredible, yes, I have not traveled all over the country, but only San Salvador. Just the change that can be seen. in San Salvador It's that it's incredible then Of course if you associate it not only with bitcoin I already know but if you take bitcoin as a reference, from the outside it gives the sensation that this option is incredible, not to mention the games of thrones that politicians like to play among themselves, let's see, pardon me, but let's see who has the longest one. Well, the fact that it was like the first to make public the thing about the strategic reserve of bitcoin that also puts it in that Game of thrones that to me as a bit coiner of satin of peer to peer of being with individuals hand in hand. No, that doesn't matter to me a bit, but if I've taken a look at it, I do say. Well, here the First mover has something to say, so well, from the outside it would give the sensation that it is totally beneficial. Now I would love to hear you tell me that I have no idea, I'll listen to you, eh, butThey come more with what they were saying, we have been saying that the country brand is good, marketing is good that you believe it and that you come and that you come to find out here and because it injects money into the economy, it injects bitcoin, we have seen it in Berlin, eh, how it has helped a lot of people, we are talking about a minimum percentage of the population if we talk about only Berlin and El Sonte, which are the places that have benefited the most, eh, but it helps them come here, eh, the way bitcoin is exposed and El Salvador in general, I think what marketing is, is amazing, how El Salvador sounds, who knew El Salvador if we do the survey here, who knew El Salvador before 2021 and most people don't know what El Salvador is, now El Salvador is known everywhere in the world and for many things too. Not only for bitcoin, but I think it helps, then we have Bukele and his advisors Max, who we know and who has personality too, and that also attracts people here, and for me it is totally good and positive that El Salvador has that brand and we are pragmatic and we want people and we want injection and we want money here in Berlin in Berlin in El Salvador we need that kind of marketing Eh and from there we see the advertising spots of El Salvador How beautiful San Salvador is we see those drone images at night and the lights and everything and obviously you are going to show if you want to show a marketing you are going to show the good of the country but there are a lot of things that do not look like how the drone images that are shown look and now as a Salvadoran since we are here we can talk about this but I would not I would not start talking about the bad of my country I want the good to be heard so that people come and learn and inject and help to be able to develop and to be able to improve the bad but there is a lot of bad Ah yes and we are talking about Well I do not know if you have the data on the percentage of the population below the poverty line here in El Salvador is large eh many people living day to day many people living in places with no access to water without access to electricity much less access to internet signal and how bitcoin to those people how how do you get there you have to change the entire reality before being able to have a good debate think if bitcoin is for everyone I think another talk this this saying of bitcoin It fixes everything there, it's very nice and looks really nice on shirts. But there is a debate there if it really fixes everything and not to mention that it depends on what amounts of income, if we believe the thesis that bitcoins are for everyone, we have to be talking about custody wallets. In other words, we are no longer talking about a bitcoin that you control, but that someone else is controlling it because with those amounts, the commission, as Leonor Anes said, at the ATMs is going to eat everything up. So you have to move to a vision of bitcoin that someone else is managing for you. Yes, but that is another debate and on Friday, on Friday, theFriday we will have it in Plan B well but no and a little bit about that I think that the Custodio wallets are necessary people are not going to start running their own No, they are not going to start eh with their own seed key people need the simplest possible to start interacting with bitcoin and the Custodio wallets are the ones that provide that service but yes, about marketing I totally agree I like that the bitcoin comes and comes to know El Salvador beyond going to those places where it looks pretty Eh Because in the end it is economy and And you inject money and he does not buy the pupusas directly from you but the one with the pupusas then goes to spend at the supermarket and the money runs and but yes there are a lot of things that at the marketing level should not be shown and that in El Salvador There is a lot of that that equally Although always always in any place there are always things that are not eh They are not going to be the ones that sell the country better not the important thing if the feeling is that perhaps we were already like this 5 years ago What happens is that a little better on all sides is going or not or if even the arrival of bitcoin has made everything worse No and that I think perhaps would be the reflection if we are getting better if the country is getting better because from the outside it is true that we cannot see everything then that is what you have to tell us whether even if the site is impoverished and it was already complicated before if bitcoin has been able to change that sign even a little or not No definitely yes it has changed it eh it has helped but then we have to ask the average Salvadoran if it has really helped them or if they feel the change it is interesting to see the yes yes yes no of of of the PR taras ot through the 20 in 2021 and it is bitcoin bitcoin not bitcoin bitcoin So if we start asking the Salvadoran in general are bitcoin only bitcoins They will tell you if they would implement it again those who are not bitcoin or do not know about bitcoin would surely have a similar answer no I would not implement it and then we have to see how many Salvadoran bitcoins really exist even among those who greatly support the president they think that the decision of bitcoin is a wrong decision you you may like bukele a lot I support him and here there bitcoin no then there are people out there who don't see it no no it hasn't reached them yet those benefits of bitcoin well moving on to Guillermo I also want to introduce another topic Li total to comment vision that we have from the outside and proud of it is seen we go step by step that is what this conference is called and we go step by step let's see let's talk first about bitcoin we bitcoiners like to talk a lot about bitcoin but we don't like to spend it it is a reality and I can tell you from the perspective of what we see in the day to day activity of our wallet we have the flow charts of how it goes How money moves through our ecosystem now we close the year we moved 84millions of dollars in total through our ecosystem, bitcoin enters our ecosystem to be exchanged and spent, that is, it was no longer a purpose of keeping it to save, it was the purpose of exchanging it and spending it. And we saw that as a vehicle of value, it was a transport of value, to finish, my initial perspective was to facilitate the ability for people to save in bitcoin, there is a saving of those 84 million, we remained in Custodian as of the end of the year, we were left guarding about 20 million dollars in bitcoin, but the other 60 million were effectively spent, that is one of the second principles. It would give me the feeling that you were saying the opposite, that you said that bitcoin does not spend. But with this of those who are spending the 60 million, about three quarters of the volume, this. This is the opposite, right? Of course, I will explain it to you why, in the second thing, El Salvador before 2019 really no longer had a window to go through and improve. In other words, we were on the verge of being a failed state very close and that was what many of us probably expected. It is undeniable that today El Salvador has a small one, it has a small window, but it has it before we did not have it, today we do have a window where we know how to go through it. I cannot tell you what we are going to do in Dubai in 5 years or Singapore, but we are moving forward, not backwards. There are many things, there is a lot of cloth to cut, eh. There are many things that need to be improved. Not everything is good, but the balance between the good and the bad wins out, the good. Nobody can deny that the change in security is the greatest achievement that I think we can all appreciate now, but where does that change in security come from? It came from the fact that due to the increase in tourism and the desire to invest in the country, the investor came and complained and said, "Stop," I mean, I'm not going to invest in that country with that level of insecurity, it caused a change and it caused a rapid change. So that, well, I also think that we cannot say that everything is due to bitcoin, no, no, we cannot be also, eh, eh, so eh, condescending with the subject, I mean, there are many other factors, but yes, the issue of changing the country's brand is definitely a factor, eh, that has caused a difference for this and in terms of returning to the subject of marketing it makes me laugh a lot I think my friend here bit Driver can tell it better than me After having visited 64 countries and a country you arrive at and they identify you as Salvadoran or say that you are from El Salvador the first thing they tell you is Oh yes bukele the bitcoin Or am I wrong it makes me laugh or that really shows you How did you put the name of El Salvador in a different category in a different position before it was from El Salvador and they were already starting to put away their wallet it is a different change it is a change it is a very strong change now returning to answer the initial question it is not the bitcoin that spends it is not the bitcoins that we are seeing spend in ourecosystem that 20% that stays 30% of bitcoin that is the one of the bitcoins they do not spend So they spend the one that was paid in bitcoin for some other reason and they are not interested in keeping it and they are interested in materializing it that at the beginning that was the purpose to take it to the masses so that they would use it on a daily basis But what do you use it for today still on a daily basis you use it in cash but it is very significant that there are three quarters of that volume of 80 million are non-bitcoin exposed to bitcoin And that is I think it is a success But where does that data come from of a third of the bitcoin that is used by Salvadorans not in the deed ecosystem that occurs in the ecosystem of said Banks of my numbers of my statistics I cannot speak in general for other wallets Or for other actors I tell you what I see in my flow in real time and at the close of the statistics of the year hayex but bitcoin that receives bitcoin does not spend it or in other words I prefer to pawn the dog but I do not spend it and the non-bitcoin that does receives bitcoin, changes it and spends it but that's because in the end it becomes a tool that there are people who accept receiving it as payment and then those people want to get rid of it but but it's okay at first they accepted it as payment and they knew and they accepted it because they know that they have that they can redeem it or that is if the history of money any asset that has been monetized a little or a lot has been because that person knew that they were accepting it to cancel a debt eh or that a person was canceling a debt knew that they were going to be able to convert it into something else no then I think it's a success for that although later they get rid of it It's a success because it's already circulating if it were I don't know I imagine this money this paper money of those imperfect countries shareholders nobody wanted it no I mean there are goods that there are people who repudiate it And in this case there are people who are not bitcoin but who do not repudiate receiving bit this is an exo and no And they still do repudiate it No not a majority either but there are 60 million that have entered to leave and I'll explain how and we see it Every week there is no week in the that a transaction of a sale of a land of a house of a property of 300,000 does not go through us in which the one who is paying is in bitcoin but the one who is selling it does not want to know anything about bitcoin and wants cash. What happens is that it enters the ecosystem of said Banks in bitcoin and the owner of that land is paid in dollars. Why does it have to enter in bitcoin? Because it will not go through the traditional financial system for the next 15 days. Now what is the second thing that we see companies that arrive in El Salvador and this is for another one for another talk as well, but they thought that you were arriving? I incorporated you and you could transfer money through El Salvador as if nothing was happening, nothing could be further from the truth. To begin with, they do not approve international transfers for the first few months, how was it my turn to capitalize those companies and it was my turn too?do it like this receive it in bitcoin the first investors well all almost all of the investors of the said Banks to date have been bitcoins and obviously the investment came in bitcoin but how did I pay at that time to the one who rents the premises to me how did I pay him or in other words how did I make all the payments in cash what did we have to do to change it immediately it facilitated us and gave us a successful international money transfer intermediation channel But in the end it is changed and spent I see it well not so bad over there but well as you say it would give for a long talk I want to hear Leonor on this subject and I have one last question with which we will close so not first I don't even remember the questions what do you think of the vision that we have from abroad about the success that it can have if we are going too far if not or if you understand the fact that we see it so much let's be so bullish I think that the vision that foreigners have about the country is totally and totally true in fact you have come you are here you feel cool goat as they say eh Because the ecosystem has adapted to you so that you feel good, that is, if someone does not manage to understand that, eh, they should try to grasp it a little, right? I mean, if you leave the ecosystem, you will be able to see that reality and when I comment on this, I mean, I am not speaking from the point of view because here we are not even addressing the political point of view, we are addressing reality. 3 years. What is our reading and if you asked us what, which I think is another interesting question, what would have been done differently? If something different had been done, we would have had different results. Because although the impact on the country's brand, the impact on security has been very positive. It would be more interesting to know if the adoption issue would have been positive than the impact, how much it would have moved to change, that is, at a global level, in all. I think it is eh something extremely important, blinded perception in several senses, and sometimes I will give you an example, a last example of something that I think the community outside of bitcoin eats up. It is, for example, a node per house. I don't know how many have seen that, that news and I see the comments there, I say, eh, that's smoke, for me it's smoke, and if you ask me why it's smoke, I can give you different reasons because I add truth But they are news that come out and that they comment on and that generate engagement etc. But it is not a reality Then it is fine Yes at the marketing level yes but at the level of reality of the country of the people of Salvadorans because here the main basic question is how bitcoin has benefited the most marginalized or most needy people of El Salvador and in particular not the people who have the most money right because that well they do not need bitcoin then and the other perception eh a little wrong that I feel is promoted internationally are the different things that may be happening and beingpragmatic Gerardo mentioned it but I'll give a very concrete example, there are 134 registered companies, I think that's right. V are the companies that have come as a result of the ease that El Salvador offers to different companies in the world related to the subject of digital assets. 134 eh pragmatism would be 134. How many direct and indirect jobs have these companies generated in El Salvador and you can compare it with another company like a Telus call center, how much has a single company, whether it's a maquila or a call center, generated versus 3 years with 134 companies that are there, so real data, right? 134 you can hear it well, but how many jobs are they generating for Salvadorans in total, then eh I see it from a pragmatic point of view, related to success with bitcoin, but relating it to statistics at the level of profit of El Salvador, per se. Well, I suppose that there have been many things, but I suppose that it speaks not only of looking at a sector like that of these companies, but also the increase in tourism, the increase, as I asked before, whether it is little or a lot, but this Salvadoran is the most poor that exists in the country if something is being noticed if this improvement in tourism is reaching it in some indirect way no then I suppose there would be several metrics to have a global vision eh good or bad Leonor Why do you demonize me no let's see regarding the opinion first I would say let's not be naive neither on our side nor on yours is it totally altruistic or naive or is it because it is what reaches us in the media I mean to me as to everyone here it benefits me I talk to investors all day I love that they ask me more about bitcoin and I'm going to talk about everything I know about bitcoin which probably isn't much but I can spend hours talking about bitcoin as it was a couple of years ago when I had to make all the reservations about the security situation of Bla bl Bla then to everyone at hours of hours even the private sector whether you like bitcoin or not nobody is going to go outside to tell the dirty laundry because it suits us and that is why I think that these spaces also feel so unique because really bitcoin in El Salvador I must say also an error was that here from outside it was believed that here it was fighting the conceptual existential battle of bitcoin and inside we are discussing very specific things bitcoin as public policy bitcoin as a million-dollar investment by the state bitcoin as something that affected my traditional company, my way of operating, etc. here nobody was criticizing bitcoin in its existence. In other words, we were not interested in the subject. And you from the outside. Well, the narrative that El Salvador is a success is not just naivety, there is no, it is not just that you are not paying attention to El Salvador all day and you do not have to be. Then you do not have the responsibility to go see the ugly, which is not bitcoin's fault either. But it is also because the entire ecosystem benefits you. Bitcoin does it.growing makes it more profitable, it raises the price, it makes other countries want to adopt it, etc., so that's what I would say, I mean, it's not that it's super naive. Don't tell me that everything the panelists are saying is not interesting, it's El Salvador bitcoin but real El Salvador without fireworks, or yes, but real fireworks, not marketing fireworks, just good, and now we'll get back to it, but I'll interrupt you for a quick minute to tell you about how I've used bit refill and hyper media for things related to my getaway to El Salvador, on the bit refill side, I did it again before leaving northern Europe, I bought an esim card for latam, paying with lining at bit refill, I chose the 5 GB option for days, and hey, like a godsend, I landed in San Salvador and already had internet available to communicate with Napo, who was coming to pick me up with his shiny bit Driver car. That's right, bit refil bitcoin as a means of exchange made a reality and for necessary everyday things, if you don't know their catalog or haven't checked it out for a while, I encourage you to follow the link. from the description and take a look there are products for all countries and they update them a lot on the side of se hyper media the app and protocol for the creation of content collectively that does not stop improving and also I have to applaud the team because while I have been in El Salvador they have improved the user experience at a God level because with it I have taken the opportunity to update some articles that I had pending from the Chinese money pod and I have also posted a publication on the Spanish bitcoin army that I made well more than a publication a presentation that I made at Plan B Forum El Salvador if you are interested in these topics and also see what se hyper media looks like Take a look at lunaticoin pun block Because everything you see there is made with se hyper media and why don't you download the app and consume 100% peer to peer incens content link in the description I'm going to start with you with the last question of course Even if we buy this positive thesis from outside because as you say now maybe we are also interested in what we have read in the last month and a half is that an agreement is reached with the international monetary fund and it seems We have been talking all the time in a very brief and very superficial way. I know that it is what the time of the adoption of bitcoin of the last 3 years gives, not the reflections of 3 and a half years or so since the bitcoin law has been in operation, but now speaking towards the future it would give the sensation that something can change because at least from what you can read on the website of the International Monetary Fund it would seem that I have not read anything official from the government but it would seem that they have come to accept certain changes. Such as removing the obligation to accept bitcoin, that is, that it would go outside of that framework of legal and compulsory currency, let us not forget, and other things that could even perhaps be good, such as the fact that thegovernment stop participating in the chivo wallet no and in this whole chivo company and some other things No but and also the fact that taxes cannot be paid for example in bitcoin then all this from Salvadoran eyes of the international monetary fund how do you see it you see it as a positive thing you see it as a thing that is going to kill perhaps the positive aspects that bitcoin had brought to the country until now from outside it is a little scary and I understand I really liked what Guillermo said before from an investor from outside you need time to pass and see that things are stable and that you are walking on the path that you said you were going to walk Well when I get to you I will ask you more like that But you can be negative or you can retrace the path taken in the 3 and a half years that we have been Leonor I think it is like that if I know if you swallow this eh narrative that over idealizes bitcoin and I return to my controversial answer it will save me not the adoption of bitcoin or not El Salvador positioning itself as bitcoin But I would save myself what I understand as the bitcoin law of 2021 and what the agreement of the fund with El Salvador is going to prove to you is that El Salvador could have also saved it and that all the good part of the development of because its businesses always could have. I mean yes, the perfect marketing bus but I also trust that this is the best marketing government in the northern hemisphere and something else would have occurred to the fund, the agreement of the fund of El Salvador what it is going to show you is that the bitcoin law not everything that you have done afterwards not all the regulatory framework not the promotion of digital assets not the innovation That does seem to me to have been beneficial for the country but the bitcoin law El Salvador could have saved it and the fund the agreement with the fund is going to show you that because they are not going to say it like that but in content it is a repeal of the bitcoin law and a rescue of everything that has allowed this new ecosystem to emerge and the other thing I would say I am not the only one who saves the bitcoin law right at the event that was before bit coiners they asked eh eh the panelists what are the queries of the different countries and governments and there is the government representative was Sanson Mao what they are asking is tokenization eh strategic reserve yey regulation of digital asset agency, in other words, it's not just me who ignores bitcoin law, it's the rest of the world. Nobody is following that route, everyone is following these other routes, which are the ones that have really brought virtues to the bitcoin ecosystem in El Salvador. We would have a long talk eh on this interesting topic, Guillermo, about what I was telling you, we will retrace what we have done or do you agree with Leonor that this will in fact show that certain things could have been saved and it won't even be noticeable. I won't be able to tell you if it was planned by the government or not, but the fact is that in El Salvador, bitcoin was never mandatory, so now I changed the law thatYou say that I force you to not be mandatory It's that here it was never mandatory the police never went knocking on the door store by store asking do you receive bitcoin a complaint was never processed in El Salvador at the level of the consumer defense against a business for not accepting bitcoin and that they were forced by the government fined by the government because they did not receive bitcoin is that it was never mandatory then you make me change the law to say that it is not mandatory is the same No I am going to ask you for the right of reply Because first I spent a year all of 2021 dozens hundreds of businessmen meeting with the government every day until the bitcoin law came into force and today people believe that one never asked and it is mandatory or what does mandatory mean let's see I can I am not going to do it because I am not interested in the controversy but countless ministers secretaries and representatives without a position of Presidency here when one asked them and it is mandatory they offered us a fine, business closure and jail There is nothing more mandatory than that which later precisely because of the unpopularity of the law they had and not only the unpopularity of the law that many discussions of what it meant to be mandatory for businesses they had no answer for example accounting rules isolation from the international financial system etc. I also have public officials who when it was necessary to defend the money laundering laws and the gafil evaluations of the country said no the bcr said no no no yes don't worry if it is that it hasn't even stuck or in other words your best defense is that people are not using it don't worry it's not a problem In other words it hasn't stuck people don't like it So it was not mandatory And that is part of the change of narrative of legal certainty that later they told us well It is voluntary okay Well I believe what Leonor says really the dimension of the position that Leonor occupied eh For those who do not no do not have the notion is to be presenting the largest union of private companies in El Salvador then I really believe what Leonor says however in the end in the day to day perception it did not happen like that in a business can I really believe that it happened at the level of the large companies yes eh No no I definitely doubt it but now in the end, in everyday life you didn't go to the store and they looked for it because they didn't receive bitcoin. Now there is a very important point that perhaps we should not forget bitcoin is bitcoin by itself bitcoin does not need El Salvador to be what it does. And who is it, is El Salvador, the one who needed bitcoin and El Salvador would have done this or not, we would have had the United States now wanting to make a legal reserve in bitcoin and with that speech. So really what El Salvador did was get on a train in a convenient way, eh, making a difference, being the first country in the world to do this, having that value. The truth is that I don't, no, I don't imagine myself inthose spheres having made that decision eh very brave for better for worse for like or dislike but it takes a lot of courage to do what was done and that caused a change Well so nothing I think that with that cierro very good eh I would like to hear aa vco in Berlin vestra opinion and we will close with with Isi that I have seen that he also had something to say about what happened before yes Well and the question if I understand correctly is if there would be a regression with this that I know or if you are afraid if you think that it is going to hinder everything that has been given especially for example you who are demonstrating a constant proof of work not with with with what you do in Berlin Eh yes it is yes Well that is to say here we can see it from different angles and it may be that for example companies that are large eh to say a Walmart to say a select one that are that already organically have many clients eh can probably stop accepting bitcoin and nothing happens but we also have to take into account that there is a sector of the population and eh I can explain to you specifically speaking of Berlin but I have also traveled through From El Salvador I know businesses that are accepting bitcoin that are small businesses, so if you in your business, a small merchant who does not receive thousands of clients on a daily basis, are receiving business through bitcoin, I don't see a reason why, if it is optional, I will stop accepting it and we met with a lawyer who obviously so that he could explain all this about the bitcoin law, the law of eh with an accountant as well for the same reason that Leonor said. There are a lot of gaps in these codes that don't explain much about how bitcoin is going to be regulated, so eh. Yes, it says the word that it is mandatory, but really in practice, as Guillermo said, it is not mandatory because you go to a place and they tell you that they do not accept bitcoin, no way. I mean, it has happened to me. Because I have always asked if they accept bitcoin even knowing that they do not, and a large business, a small business, then eh, yes, there may be a regression, but in large businesses, eh, small merchants who accept and receive income, will not stop accepting it, and in Berlin, I tell you, it will go over people's heads, whether it is law or not that they accept bitcoin, people will continue to accept bitcoin, yes. you've made me think that bitcoin Beach existed before the law, right? So no, there's no need for me to say what I say internationally, that there will be people who will follow it. When I want to add an important fact there as well that can give us a little context about that. Mexico does not have a bitcoin law. Mexico does not have this type of regulations and today there are documented wallets that have bitcoin. There are 8 million bitcoin users in Mexico without there having been a law, so bitcoin will continue on its way with or without El Salvador, with it being mandatory, with it not being mandatory, bitcoin will continue on its way regardless. I'll let you put the finishing touches ready. Well, look.This question that you have asked me gives me a guideline eh to make a criticism of the bitcoin community, that is, and what I say and what I say and what I say and what I say and call is eh the bitcoin hypocrisy because I liked the two aperon right now from Guillermo and from and from this Leonor in the sense that look, I consider myself pure bitcoin, that is to say, I hope that when someone calls themselves bitcoin it is as we say soreño that they do not come to me with I mean that it is done where it is most convenient is not if you defend the principles if you defend the philosophy of bitcoin stay bitcoin see but the bitcoin hypocrisy for me and it is because I see it in the environment with this question of yours eh bitcoin let's never say at least what I see and what I know they have never criticized the chivo wallet they never criticized it I don't know if for convenience because they don't want the government to see them in a bad light because they are going to lose some business they never launched a CR that for me well I don't know everyone should know but for me the obligation of bitcoin should be to report what it is bad so that if we want bitcoin to prosper I do not see that, it was hit from all sides, eh foreigner who came tried Yes but foreigners perhaps locals who are the ones who should have raised their voice I have never seen that type of criticism but what I want to tell you with this is that now that this issue of the international monetary fund comes out, everyone dares Now yes with going out to say that the file was useless because they already know that it will come out and the other issue eh As Leonor said bitcoin has been mandatory by law, that is, mandatory that has not been fulfilled is something else but it is mandatory but now the bitcoin campaign comes out saying Ah no yes it was not even mandatory then eh I call it what has happened with the international monetary fund that the international monetary fund has twisted the arm of the Savior because here let us remember something else eh that I think was of an exciting impact for everyone 2021 I think that in the sonte they talk about the bonds eh bitcoin And the hubbub what did they intend Look what did the volcanic bonds intend was a fight against the current imposed system What is that current imposed system international monetary fund then volcanic bonds new form of financing we slap in the face to the traditional media that force us to do things and what is the reality now the reality is that El Salvador in a certain way has been financially drowned these institutions have finally bent the hand and the government has had to give in in a certain way we should not look beyond the impact of this because as the bitcoin Berlin colleagues said here there are few companies that right now accept bitcoin in El Salvador will it be that they do it for a matter of compliance with the law and when article 7 which I believe today in February is going to be repealed will they continue to do so well it makes hot news but that will be interesting to see the few large chains thatI suppose that for compliance they accepted it, they are going to continue accepting it, they are not going to continue accepting it, it is the interesting question and then there is the issue of volcanic bonds. In other words, there is some tie based on the conditions of the international monetary fund that the government will no longer be able to execute, so there are several interesting points that come from here onwards with this topic, I think that this talk is going to open up other improvements in the future and well, I have enjoyed it a lot but I want to close with one last note because there has been telephone traffic, you have seen it around here and it is that Leonor does not know how to receive notifications from NASA, but she has had the notification of the news at the time she had to receive it. Can you explain to us what you were teaching us? My canonical moment, the legislative assembly of El Salvador today reformed the bitcoin law approved in 2021, the reform eliminates all mentions of bitcoin as a currency and also repeals article cu that allowed the payment of tax contributions with bitcoin, that is, paraphrasing right now 2 minutes an 3 cu 5 it has just been published that the Bitcoin law has been reformed by eliminating the word currency, eliminating the legal tender, yes, the legal tender and also what we discussed before that taxes cannot be paid with eh. So nothing, we closed what else I also wanted to close with one thing that I think for me is important and that is with go we all use par excellence the cases of financial failures that have plunged several countries into disgrace here we have Argentines. The corralito case is something that hits hard and something happened to me when the announcement of this from the international monetary fund was made officially and that something that would be interesting to see is all the people because in some way the wallet file has been used for various reasons, right, some use it on their Telegram for private matters etc. in some way There is movement but since the announcement was made there was a fear I feel quite strong and that fear led the vast majority of users, I think without being wrong, to try to withdraw their money from the wallet file and nobody. Well I don't know if you have seen the comments but nobody could withdraw or send by bitcoin that bitcoin does not fail but the bitcoin that the wallet file is not bitcoin that is why it fails then nobody could withdraw onchain nobody could withdraw via ling nobody I could withdraw my money from the ATMs then exactly exactly but the point here I am going and we return to the beginning of what killed the perception of bitcoin in El Salvador with that experience that you give to the majority of people at the level of use when you get to talk to them about bitcoin as such you killed the experience previously for something that did not even have to do with bitcoin then I think it has a lot to do with what happened in fact I think that many people right now that the law has already been approved the few still that have funds on file I must assume that somedegree of concern you have right I mean what's going to happen private company and there's a small print on the wallet file page in case you want to go see it that they are not responsible if funds are lost So that is a fact that I think that or that are thorns that nobody sees but that in the end to me as a bitcoin defender of freedom and defender of the pure bitcoin philosophy for me they are quite relevant in all aspects and sense right then important things for me M is yes that I have met several people many Maybe they avoid the fact because I am critical or something like that But I am always a fairly open person to be able to dialogue with diverse people right So I swear that everyone comes to talk to me and the rest I thank you very much Thank you very much for having come for having found the time to come to this conversation right now we are going to leave it here but the conversation will continue having a soda something to snack on So I encourage everyone to talk to them but again thank you very much and a big applause please Thank you and Napo Hey what did you think of this incredible finally I speak finally I speak No the truth is believe me what this in itself is a little impressive and it is historic because we were discussing something something very that we had said that had never been carried out in the country and coincidentally the news falls that I don't know how to do the honor already said and here it was it was like a face yes here it is Exactly Exactly there was already a connection there but just like Guillermo said to bitcoin nobody stops it no matter what happens it continues forward That's all Thank you very much and that's it for the podcast that I don't know you will tell me you I posted it on patreon as I always do a few days before and Well in fact yesterday and I have already received some criticism from them and well opinions reflections and it has been very popular you will tell me but it's that I loved it I love listening to people who are really laughing their asses off to get out of the Twitter echo chamber where Yes everything is numbers Go up and where everyone is We are all gonna make it And yes bitcoin fixes this it's not okay to go for a walk it's okay to walk around people who have had bitcoin fall from the sky like It is the case of El Salvador, the experiment that Bukele led an entire country to and it is great to ask them how they see it, what use have they had in the daily pots in El Salvador and there we have seen what happens in Berlin, what happens in Zonte, what happens in San Salvador, but here we had four testimonies from different areas, Isi on the bitcoin side, bitcoin Berlin on the adoption side, dito Banks and Guillermo on the business side of a company breaking their backs day after day to get ahead with bitcoin as its flag and starting with the arrival of bitcoin and then the honor, which was a bit of a revelation because it was the opposite of the conversation and well, a breath of fresh air as well, which was representing the union of companies at that time.private And then I brought a whole bunch of reflections of opinions on how the arrival of bitcoin had been understood from that side I don't know I loved it I want to repeat and in fact we are going to repeat I don't know if with the same actors very probably we will repeat with some but next year at the same dates more or less of this year's conference we are going to repeat the meetup in San Salvador somewhere but it will be a bigger place We are going to at least double at least we are going to go to 120 people so This is going to be a mini conference so I warn you in advance there is a year 11 months left prepare yourself and save yourself a vacation for the end of January in El Salvador I promise you that it is quite an experience and with this on the table I do want to add something that I saw that was missing we have talked a lot Here not about whether bitcoin as a means of exchange or not If bitcoin in a custodial wallet or not If as a transport of value for remittances or not strategic reserve financial education savings technology marketing campaign that is what is abundantly clear that bitcoin has worked very well in that aspect but there is something that I still have to deal with in that conversation and I was lucky that Isis attended, she is a young bitcoin er who is a crack a crack I hope one day eh to talk to her at the Pot because she is a young bitcoin who is just starting university who was already educated with all these programs that there have been in El Salvador in these years to educate the youth eh who came and with force especially looking there if they come with a lot of force and well to educate them in financial issues all that financial and economic education that is nonexistent in Europe well she comes from there and well she has a lot of things to tell let's see if we talk about it but what I missed to discuss in that talk is the impact that bitcoin has had on these young Salvadorans because it is true that it has taken hold or not as a means of exchange that has not taken hold and now Bukele does what he does with the bitcoin law or is forced by this deal that he has reached with the international monetary fund it does not matter or in other words the impact on young people who have suddenly been exposed to this financial education that otherwise they would not have had and it is wonderful and it is wonderful So at least from my point of view and at least from what I have been able to see, I have met super young developers, that is to say, rabidly young, I have met ISIS, I have met a lot of other young people and you say, my goodness, these people are well in charge. So I would say Isis, remember their name, but I would also say young Salvadorans, batch 202 and above, remember their names because they are coming on strong, so nothing, I recommend that you don't believe anything I say and that we see each other next year at Plan B Forum El Salvador 2026 so that you can check it out for yourself and before moving on to the value for value section, now the bitcoin seed custody advice, this week's advice is a classic, noreuse bitcoin addresses When we come to bitcoin we think that it works like Fiat banking or like email where we have a single address or account in which we receive all the value The problem is that bitcoin addresses are transparent and everything it receives is seen, therefore our bitcoin wallet every time we give it a receive it gives us a new address and if it doesn't give you a new one it's a bad wallet Don't be scared when you see new addresses because it's the standard it's like your wallet is the root of the tree and each address is one of its leaves everything ends up branching out the root So it's like everything drips down the root but by giving different leaves giving different addresses you're not exposing the same address to everyone and you're not exposing everything that's being received and everything you're spending it's a way for you and the rest to be private if you're interested in learning more about this in 28 days that will change the way you protect your wealth right in block two of the bitcoin seed custody mentoring break down this tree so that there are no more doubts and let's stop reusing addresses the custody mentoring it is a training that we do between arcat and a server and in which we take you from zero to hero in just 4 weeks the entire first quarter of 2025 is already full April is filling up and May is complete too so the next one If you don't make it to April it will be in June So you want to start in bitcoin with guarantees Well come and if it seems like a long wait Don't worry because you will start receiving content weeks before the official start more information in the description or at semill bitcoin.com and now for the value for value section Well since the last pod which is not even a week ago because I published it on Thursday today is Tuesday I have received countervalues ​​in podcasting applications 2.0 and our d carab marcelus exter Gus flix lord night mon Lolly coffee Man vhs bitc Tino libertarian Enrique 747 festa loca 19 52 santochi nakamoto saturo nakami bitcoin mises loco B satoshi i already said this no satoshi 1902 sh 512 Thomson e alvar kainer Garcia Esteban guerrilla satoshi Jesus kight enl negro somana Unión editorial Jose Claus bebir Diego soyu o boe Coin sadgi verde blog do it no Do your own research de y net savor Let's go there the biggest counter value I have received this week has been kiner with 21400 sats and the following message Thank you luna for the podcast about freedom and for so much value that you give us continuously I follow you since l215 and since then I have not stopped falling down the rabbit hole bitcoin is now a Pillar in my life and there is no turning back I continue with enthusiasm thinking that everything that I lack for learning the noster pod I also loved it and being able to get out of the ultra-regulatory statist Matrix I hope one day to be able to greet you in person at some conference Thanks again and keep going hard thank you very much kiner and without a doubt we will continue going hard then I have also received countervalues ​​from several anonymous people who have not put a Nick or who have not changed it in fountain and I also bring messages that I have received this week marcelus He says very much the series of the trip to El Salvador I loved Valentín's initiative in Peru without a doubt without a doubt worthy of following and supporting yes I want to see if zero escapes and goes checking what is happening there and can tell us from the epicenter to see if he finds that gap per vat says an episode of those that I keep to recommend to some other relative about I understand that it is the one by Ricardo Salinas about the travel diaries of El Salvador they are very entertaining to listen to and there are usually testimonies that are a source of inspiration healthy envy in many cases I was all week with the music of San Salvador in my head you are not the only one perat I think we were all eh Beat coock says you asked for an opinion on travel diaries in El Salvador, for me it is a format that I love and the combo with the live 240 of last night is brutal to tell you that for me it is not crucial that you edit it those days or Just a tu vuelta but yes respecting the format thanks thanks to you for the continuous countervalues ​​and also for this message that I asked you to know if you liked the travel diaries and if I should continue doing them on my getaways wherever Vaya an anonymous person tells me good Luna I wanted to make my first payment for lining since it is the first time I use it Thanks to you and nothing to say to you that for me it has been a before and after that I learn a lot with your podcasts and that you continue contributing so much Thank you Thank you very much these messages help a lot and then Garcia says I love the format micro in hand plan chatty reporter through the streets of the city especially in places like El Salvador it is all very pure not a marvel Luna Thank you very much for that Well well againthanks to you too and yes yes yes it is now clear no I cannot leave the microphone when I go to the places and what I do feel is The purity of being in a place where bitcoin floods everything there are not many places like that El Salvador is the entire country then There are communities I suppose it must be the same if you go to bitcoin Lake in Costa Rica no or if you go jumping to communities of circular economies that have been created in in various places well we will go to different ones we will introduce ourselves with the microphone and trying to bring interesting testimonies I will leave it here today and if nothing goes wrong I will greet you in a week with more learning ah