darosior [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2022-02-19 📝 Original message: > Necromancing might be a ...
📅 Original date posted:2022-02-19
📝 Original message:
> Necromancing might be a reasonable name for attacks that work by getting an
> out-of-date version of a tx mined.
It's not an "attack"? There is no such thing as an out-of-date transaction, if
you signed and broadcasted it in the first place. You can't rely on the fact that
a replacement transaction would somehow invalidate a previous version of it.
------- Original Message -------
Le samedi 19 février 2022 à 10:39 AM, Peter Todd <pete at petertodd.org> a écrit :
> On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 04:38:27PM -0800, Jeremy Rubin wrote:
>
> > > As I said, it's a new kind of pinning attack, distinct from other types
> > >
> > > of pinning attack.
> >
> > I think pinning is "formally defined" as sequences of transactions which
> >
> > prevent or make it less likely for you to make any progress (in terms of
> >
> > units of computation proceeding).
>
> Mentioning "computation" when talking about transactions is misleading:
>
> blockchain transactions have nothing to do with computation.
>
> > Something that only increases possibility to make progress cannot be
> >
> > pinning.
>
> It is incorrect to say that all use-cases have the property that any version of
>
> a transaction being mined is progress.
>
> > If you want to call it something else, with a negative connotation, maybe
> >
> > call it "necromancing" (bringing back txns that would otherwise be
> >
> > feerate/fee irrational).
>
> Necromancing might be a reasonable name for attacks that work by getting an
>
> out-of-date version of a tx mined.
>
> > In particular, for the use case you mentioned "Eg a third party could mess
> >
> > up OpenTimestamps calendars at relatively low cost by delaying the mining
> >
> > of timestamp txs.", this is incorrect. A third party can only accelerate
> >
> > the mining on the timestamp transactions, but they can accelerate the
> >
> > mining of any such timestamp transaction. If you have a single output chain
> >
> > that you're RBF'ing per block, then at most they can cause you to shift the
> >
> > calendar commits forward one block. But again, they cannot pin you. If you
> >
> > want to shift it back one block earlier, just offer a higher fee for the
> >
> > later RBF'd calendar. Thus the interference is limited by how much you wish
> >
> > to pay to guarantee your commitment is in this block as opposed to the next.
>
> Your understanding of how OpenTimestamps calendars work appears to be
>
> incorrect. There is no chain of unconfirmed transactions. Rather, OTS calendars
>
> use RBF to update the timestamp tx with a new merkle tip hash for to all
>
> outstanding per-second commitments once per new block. In high fee situations
>
> it's normal for there to be dozens of versions of that same tx, each with a
>
> slightly higher feerate.
>
> OTS calendars can handle any of those versions getting mined. But older
>
> versions getting mined wastes money, as the remaining commitments still need to
>
> get mined in a subsequent transaction. Those remaining commitments are also
>
> delayed by the time it takes for the next tx to get mined.
>
> There are many use-cases beyond OTS with this issue. For example, some entities
>
> use "in-place" replacement for update low-time-preference settlement
>
> transactions by adding new txouts and updating existing ones. Older versions of
>
> those settlement transactions getting mined rather than the newer version
>
> wastes money and delays settlement for the exact same reason it does in OTS.
>
> If fee accounts or any similar mechanism get implemented, they absolutely
>
> should be opt-in. Obviously, using a currently non-standard nVersion bit is a
>
> possible approach. Conversely, with CPFP it may be desirable in the settlement
>
> case to be able to prevent outputs from being spent in the same block. Again,
>
> an nVersion bit is a possible approach.
>
> > By the way, you can already do out-of-band transaction fees to a very
> >
> > similar effect, google "BTC transaction accelerator". If the attack were at
> >
> > all valuable to perform, it could happen today.
>
> I just checked: all the BTC transaction accellerator services I could find look
>
> to be either scams, or very expensive. We need compelling reasons to make this
>
> nuisance attack significantly cheaper.
>
> > Lastly, if you do get "necromanced" on an earlier RBF'd transaction by a
> >
> > third party for OTS, you should be relatively happy because it cost you
> >
> > less fees overall, since the undoing of your later RBF surely returned some
> >
> > satoshis to your wallet.
>
> As I said above, no it doesn't.
>
> ----------------------------------
>
> https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
>
> Lightning-dev mailing list
>
> Lightning-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lightning-dev
📝 Original message:
> Necromancing might be a reasonable name for attacks that work by getting an
> out-of-date version of a tx mined.
It's not an "attack"? There is no such thing as an out-of-date transaction, if
you signed and broadcasted it in the first place. You can't rely on the fact that
a replacement transaction would somehow invalidate a previous version of it.
------- Original Message -------
Le samedi 19 février 2022 à 10:39 AM, Peter Todd <pete at petertodd.org> a écrit :
> On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 04:38:27PM -0800, Jeremy Rubin wrote:
>
> > > As I said, it's a new kind of pinning attack, distinct from other types
> > >
> > > of pinning attack.
> >
> > I think pinning is "formally defined" as sequences of transactions which
> >
> > prevent or make it less likely for you to make any progress (in terms of
> >
> > units of computation proceeding).
>
> Mentioning "computation" when talking about transactions is misleading:
>
> blockchain transactions have nothing to do with computation.
>
> > Something that only increases possibility to make progress cannot be
> >
> > pinning.
>
> It is incorrect to say that all use-cases have the property that any version of
>
> a transaction being mined is progress.
>
> > If you want to call it something else, with a negative connotation, maybe
> >
> > call it "necromancing" (bringing back txns that would otherwise be
> >
> > feerate/fee irrational).
>
> Necromancing might be a reasonable name for attacks that work by getting an
>
> out-of-date version of a tx mined.
>
> > In particular, for the use case you mentioned "Eg a third party could mess
> >
> > up OpenTimestamps calendars at relatively low cost by delaying the mining
> >
> > of timestamp txs.", this is incorrect. A third party can only accelerate
> >
> > the mining on the timestamp transactions, but they can accelerate the
> >
> > mining of any such timestamp transaction. If you have a single output chain
> >
> > that you're RBF'ing per block, then at most they can cause you to shift the
> >
> > calendar commits forward one block. But again, they cannot pin you. If you
> >
> > want to shift it back one block earlier, just offer a higher fee for the
> >
> > later RBF'd calendar. Thus the interference is limited by how much you wish
> >
> > to pay to guarantee your commitment is in this block as opposed to the next.
>
> Your understanding of how OpenTimestamps calendars work appears to be
>
> incorrect. There is no chain of unconfirmed transactions. Rather, OTS calendars
>
> use RBF to update the timestamp tx with a new merkle tip hash for to all
>
> outstanding per-second commitments once per new block. In high fee situations
>
> it's normal for there to be dozens of versions of that same tx, each with a
>
> slightly higher feerate.
>
> OTS calendars can handle any of those versions getting mined. But older
>
> versions getting mined wastes money, as the remaining commitments still need to
>
> get mined in a subsequent transaction. Those remaining commitments are also
>
> delayed by the time it takes for the next tx to get mined.
>
> There are many use-cases beyond OTS with this issue. For example, some entities
>
> use "in-place" replacement for update low-time-preference settlement
>
> transactions by adding new txouts and updating existing ones. Older versions of
>
> those settlement transactions getting mined rather than the newer version
>
> wastes money and delays settlement for the exact same reason it does in OTS.
>
> If fee accounts or any similar mechanism get implemented, they absolutely
>
> should be opt-in. Obviously, using a currently non-standard nVersion bit is a
>
> possible approach. Conversely, with CPFP it may be desirable in the settlement
>
> case to be able to prevent outputs from being spent in the same block. Again,
>
> an nVersion bit is a possible approach.
>
> > By the way, you can already do out-of-band transaction fees to a very
> >
> > similar effect, google "BTC transaction accelerator". If the attack were at
> >
> > all valuable to perform, it could happen today.
>
> I just checked: all the BTC transaction accellerator services I could find look
>
> to be either scams, or very expensive. We need compelling reasons to make this
>
> nuisance attack significantly cheaper.
>
> > Lastly, if you do get "necromanced" on an earlier RBF'd transaction by a
> >
> > third party for OTS, you should be relatively happy because it cost you
> >
> > less fees overall, since the undoing of your later RBF surely returned some
> >
> > satoshis to your wallet.
>
> As I said above, no it doesn't.
>
> ----------------------------------
>
> https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
>
> Lightning-dev mailing list
>
> Lightning-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lightning-dev