Russell O'Connor [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2022-02-15 📝 Original message:On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at ...
📅 Original date posted:2022-02-15
📝 Original message:On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 1:57 PM Jeremy Rubin <jeremy.l.rubin at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi Rusty,
>
> Please see my post in the other email thread
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-February/019886.html
>
> The differences in this regard are several, and worth understanding beyond
> "you can iterate CTV". I'd note a few clear examples for showing that "CTV
> is just as powerful" is not a valid claim:
>
> 1) CTV requires the contract to be fully enumerated and is non-recursive.
> For example, a simple contract that allows n participants to take an action
> in any order requires factorially many pre-computations, not just linear or
> constant. For reference, 24! is about 2**80. Whereas for a more
> interpretive covenant -- which is often introduced with the features for
> recursion -- you can compute the programs for these addresses in constant
> time.
> 2) CTV requires the contract to be fully enumerated: For example, a simple
> contract one could write is "Output 0 script matches Output 1", and the set
> of outcomes is again unbounded a-priori. With CTV you need to know the set
> of pairs you'd like to be able to expand to a-priori
> 3) Combining 1 and 2, you could imagine recursing on an open-ended thing
> like creating many identical outputs over time but not constraining what
> those outputs are. E.g., Output 0 matches Input 0, Output 1 matches Output
> 2.
>
> I think for your point the inverse seems to hold: for the limited
> situations we might want to set up, CTV often ends up being sufficient
> because usually we can enumerate all the possible outcomes we'd like (or at
> least find a mapping onto such a construction). CTV is indeed very
> powerful, but as I demonstrated above, not powerful in the same way
> ("Complexity Class") that OP_TX or TXHASH might be.
>
Just to be clear, if OP_TXHASH is restricted to including the flags for the
values to be hashed (at least for OP_TXHASH0), we don't appear to enter
recursive covenant territory, as long as we remain without OP_CAT.
> At the very least we should clearly understand *what* and *why* we are
> advocating for more sophisticated designs and have a thorough understanding
> of the protocol complexity we are motivated to introduce the expanded
> functionality. Further, if one advocates for TX/TXHASH on a featureful
> basis, it's at least a technical ACK on the functionality CTV is
> introducing (as it is a subset) and perhaps a disagreement on project
> management, which I think is worth noting. There is a very wide gap between
> "X is unsafe" and "I prefer Y which X is a subset of ''.
>
I'm certainly of the opinion we should have some feature to enable the
commitment of outputs. It seems quite useful in various protocols.
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📝 Original message:On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 1:57 PM Jeremy Rubin <jeremy.l.rubin at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi Rusty,
>
> Please see my post in the other email thread
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-February/019886.html
>
> The differences in this regard are several, and worth understanding beyond
> "you can iterate CTV". I'd note a few clear examples for showing that "CTV
> is just as powerful" is not a valid claim:
>
> 1) CTV requires the contract to be fully enumerated and is non-recursive.
> For example, a simple contract that allows n participants to take an action
> in any order requires factorially many pre-computations, not just linear or
> constant. For reference, 24! is about 2**80. Whereas for a more
> interpretive covenant -- which is often introduced with the features for
> recursion -- you can compute the programs for these addresses in constant
> time.
> 2) CTV requires the contract to be fully enumerated: For example, a simple
> contract one could write is "Output 0 script matches Output 1", and the set
> of outcomes is again unbounded a-priori. With CTV you need to know the set
> of pairs you'd like to be able to expand to a-priori
> 3) Combining 1 and 2, you could imagine recursing on an open-ended thing
> like creating many identical outputs over time but not constraining what
> those outputs are. E.g., Output 0 matches Input 0, Output 1 matches Output
> 2.
>
> I think for your point the inverse seems to hold: for the limited
> situations we might want to set up, CTV often ends up being sufficient
> because usually we can enumerate all the possible outcomes we'd like (or at
> least find a mapping onto such a construction). CTV is indeed very
> powerful, but as I demonstrated above, not powerful in the same way
> ("Complexity Class") that OP_TX or TXHASH might be.
>
Just to be clear, if OP_TXHASH is restricted to including the flags for the
values to be hashed (at least for OP_TXHASH0), we don't appear to enter
recursive covenant territory, as long as we remain without OP_CAT.
> At the very least we should clearly understand *what* and *why* we are
> advocating for more sophisticated designs and have a thorough understanding
> of the protocol complexity we are motivated to introduce the expanded
> functionality. Further, if one advocates for TX/TXHASH on a featureful
> basis, it's at least a technical ACK on the functionality CTV is
> introducing (as it is a subset) and perhaps a disagreement on project
> management, which I think is worth noting. There is a very wide gap between
> "X is unsafe" and "I prefer Y which X is a subset of ''.
>
I'm certainly of the opinion we should have some feature to enable the
commitment of outputs. It seems quite useful in various protocols.
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