Marakesh ð“…¦ on Nostr: I believe he does explain his position more fully, and you might consider this ...
I believe he does explain his position more fully, and you might consider this podcast worth a listen. Here is an excerpt pertaining to your question:
"The mistake here lies in the order of operations, assuming that virtue is the result of liberty rather than understanding that liberty can only be enjoyed by a people who have first cultivated a high degree of virtue.
"...For Machiavelli, the key factor that made Republican government possible was the virtue of the people. Under a monarchy, the people didn't need to practice a high degree of self discipline. The king provided order, and that order allowed the people to prosper even if they didn't have the character to rule themselves.
"Order is more necessary for human flourishing than freedom, a lesson that many who have always lived under the benefit of a stable civilization often forget.
"...Ordered liberty is not the freedom to pursue every base desire, but the ability to pursue virtue inside a shared understanding of the good. That's why Machiavelli agreed with Aristotle that virtue requires community. The individual is not virtuous in isolation but must exercise that virtue by pursuing the good in relation to friends, family, religion, and business.
"Without order, we can't have community or understand our role inside of it.
"Order is a precondition for community.
"Community is a precondition for virtue.
"Liberty is the rare and delicate fruit of a society which is virtuous."
So it sounds to me like MacIntyre says first you need order, which leads to community, which can bring about virtue, and from which Liberty may be possible.
"The mistake here lies in the order of operations, assuming that virtue is the result of liberty rather than understanding that liberty can only be enjoyed by a people who have first cultivated a high degree of virtue.
"...For Machiavelli, the key factor that made Republican government possible was the virtue of the people. Under a monarchy, the people didn't need to practice a high degree of self discipline. The king provided order, and that order allowed the people to prosper even if they didn't have the character to rule themselves.
"Order is more necessary for human flourishing than freedom, a lesson that many who have always lived under the benefit of a stable civilization often forget.
"...Ordered liberty is not the freedom to pursue every base desire, but the ability to pursue virtue inside a shared understanding of the good. That's why Machiavelli agreed with Aristotle that virtue requires community. The individual is not virtuous in isolation but must exercise that virtue by pursuing the good in relation to friends, family, religion, and business.
"Without order, we can't have community or understand our role inside of it.
"Order is a precondition for community.
"Community is a precondition for virtue.
"Liberty is the rare and delicate fruit of a society which is virtuous."
So it sounds to me like MacIntyre says first you need order, which leads to community, which can bring about virtue, and from which Liberty may be possible.