Lloyd Fournier [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2023-08-14 🗒️ Summary of this message: Lloyd asks Tom ...
📅 Original date posted:2023-08-14
🗒️ Summary of this message: Lloyd asks Tom if parallel signing requests are required in the statechain protocol and questions the use of Schnorr blind signatures.
📝 Original message:
Hi Tom,
Thanks for the explanation. There's one remaining thing that isn't clear:
do you actually require parallel signing requests under the same key. It
seems to me that the protocol is very sequential in that you are passing a
utxo from one point to another in sequence. If so then the Schnorr blind
sigs problem doesn't apply.
LL
On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 at 20:00, Tom Trevethan <tom at commerceblock.com> wrote:
> HI Lloyd,
>
> Yes, the blind signatures are for bitcoin transactions (these are
> timelocked 'backup txs' if the server disappears). This is not standard
> 'Schnorr blind signature' (like
> https://suredbits.com/schnorr-applications-blind-signatures/) but a
> 2-of-2 MuSig where two keys are required to generate the full signature,
> but one of them (the server) does not learn of either the full key, message
> (tx) or final signature.
>
> The server is explicitly trusted to report the total number of partial
> signatures it has generated for a specific key. If you can verify that ALL
> the signatures generated for a specific key were generated correctly, and
> the total number of them matches the number reported by the server, then
> there can be no other malicious valid signatures in existence. In this
> statechain protocol, the receiver of a coin must check all previous backup
> txs are valid, and that the total number of them matches the server
> reported signature count before accepting it.
>
> On Thu, Aug 10, 2023 at 4:30 AM Lloyd Fournier <lloyd.fourn at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Tom,
>>
>> These questions might be wrongheaded since I'm not familiar enough with
>> the statechain protocol. Here goes:
>>
>> Why do you need to use schnorr blind signatures for this? Are the blind
>> signatures being used to produce on-chain tx signatures or are they just
>> for credentials for transferring ownership (or are they for both). If they
>> are for on-chain txs then you won't be able to enforce that the signature
>> used was not generated maliciously so it doesn't seem to me like your trick
>> above would help you here. I can fully verify that the state chain
>> signatures were all produced non-maliciously but then there may be another
>> hidden forged signature that can take the on-chain funds that were produced
>> by malicious signing sessions I was never aware of (or how can you be sure
>> this isn't the case).
>>
>> Following on from that point, is it not possible to enforce sequential
>> blind signing in the statechain protocol under each key. With that you
>> don't have the problem of wagner's attack.
>>
>> LL
>>
>> On Wed, 9 Aug 2023 at 23:34, Tom Trevethan via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>> @moonsettler
>>>
>>> When anyone receives a coin (either as payment or as part of a swap)
>>> they need to perform a verification of all previous signatures and
>>> corresponding backup txs. If anything is missing, then the verification
>>> will fail. So anyone 'breaking the chain' by signing something
>>> incorrectly simply cannot then send that coin on.
>>>
>>> The second point is important. All the 'transfer data' (i.e. new and all
>>> previous backup txs, signatures and values) is encrypted with the new owner
>>> public key. But the server cannot know this pubkey as this would enable it
>>> to compute the full coin pubkey and identify it on-chain. Currently, the
>>> server identifies individual coins (shared keys) with a statechain_id
>>> identifier (unrelated to the coin outpoint), which is used by the coin
>>> receiver to retrieve the transfer data via the API. But this means the
>>> receiver must be sent this identifier out-of-band by the sender, and also
>>> that if anyone else learns it they can corrupt the server key
>>> share/signature chain via the API. One solution to this is to have a second
>>> non-identifying key used only for authenticating with the server. This
>>> would mean a 'statchain address' would then be composed of 2 separate
>>> pubkeys 1) for the shared taproot address and 2) for server authentication.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 6:44 PM moonsettler <moonsettler at protonmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Very nice! Is there an authentication mechanism to avoid 'breaking the
>>>> chain' with an unverifiable new state by a previous owner? Can the current
>>>> owner prove the knowledge of a non-identifying secret he learned as
>>>> recipient to the server that is related to the statechain tip?
>>>>
>>>> BR,
>>>> moonsettler
>>>>
>>>> ------- Original Message -------
>>>> On Monday, August 7th, 2023 at 2:55 AM, Tom Trevethan via bitcoin-dev <
>>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A follow up to this, I have updated the blinded statechain protocol
>>>> description to include the mitigation to the Wagner attack by requiring the
>>>> server to send R1 values only after commitments made to the server of the
>>>> R2 values used by the user, and that all the previous computed c values are
>>>> verified by each new statecoin owner.
>>>> https://github.com/commerceblock/mercury/blob/master/layer/protocol.md
>>>>
>>>> Essentially, the attack is possible because the server cannot verify
>>>> that the blinded challenge (c) value it has been sent by the user has been
>>>> computed honestly (i.e. c = SHA256(X1 + X2, R1 + R2, m) ), however this CAN
>>>> be verified by each new owner of a statecoin for all the previous
>>>> signatures.
>>>>
>>>> Each time an owner cooperates with the server to generate a signature
>>>> on a backup tx, the server will require that the owner send a commitment to
>>>> their R2 value: e.g. SHA256(R2). The server will store this value before
>>>> responding with it's R1 value. This way, the owner cannot choose the value
>>>> of R2 (and hence c).
>>>>
>>>> When the statecoin is received by a new owner, they will receive ALL
>>>> previous signed backup txs for that coin from the sender, and all the
>>>> corresponding R2 values used for each signature. They will then ask the
>>>> server (for each previous signature), the commitments SHA256(R2) and the
>>>> corresponding server generated R1 value and c value used. The new owner
>>>> will then verify that each backup tx is valid, and that each c value was
>>>> computed c = SHA256(X1 + X2, R1 + R2, m) and each commitment equals
>>>> SHA256(R2). This ensures that a previous owner could not have generated
>>>> more valid signatures than the server has partially signed.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jul 27, 2023 at 2:25 PM Tom Trevethan <tom at commerceblock.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jul 27, 2023 at 9:08 AM Jonas Nick <jonasdnick at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> No, proof of knowledge of the r values used to generate each R does
>>>>>> not prevent
>>>>>> Wagner's attack. I wrote
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Using Wagner's algorithm, choose R2[0], ..., R2[K-1] such that
>>>>>> > c[0] + ... + c[K-1] = c[K].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can think of this as actually choosing scalars r2[0], ...,
>>>>>> r2[K-1] and
>>>>>> define R2[i] = r2[i]*G. The attacker chooses r2[i]. The attack
>>>>>> wouldn't make
>>>>>> sense if he didn't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>
>>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20230814/56725037/attachment-0001.html>;
🗒️ Summary of this message: Lloyd asks Tom if parallel signing requests are required in the statechain protocol and questions the use of Schnorr blind signatures.
📝 Original message:
Hi Tom,
Thanks for the explanation. There's one remaining thing that isn't clear:
do you actually require parallel signing requests under the same key. It
seems to me that the protocol is very sequential in that you are passing a
utxo from one point to another in sequence. If so then the Schnorr blind
sigs problem doesn't apply.
LL
On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 at 20:00, Tom Trevethan <tom at commerceblock.com> wrote:
> HI Lloyd,
>
> Yes, the blind signatures are for bitcoin transactions (these are
> timelocked 'backup txs' if the server disappears). This is not standard
> 'Schnorr blind signature' (like
> https://suredbits.com/schnorr-applications-blind-signatures/) but a
> 2-of-2 MuSig where two keys are required to generate the full signature,
> but one of them (the server) does not learn of either the full key, message
> (tx) or final signature.
>
> The server is explicitly trusted to report the total number of partial
> signatures it has generated for a specific key. If you can verify that ALL
> the signatures generated for a specific key were generated correctly, and
> the total number of them matches the number reported by the server, then
> there can be no other malicious valid signatures in existence. In this
> statechain protocol, the receiver of a coin must check all previous backup
> txs are valid, and that the total number of them matches the server
> reported signature count before accepting it.
>
> On Thu, Aug 10, 2023 at 4:30 AM Lloyd Fournier <lloyd.fourn at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Tom,
>>
>> These questions might be wrongheaded since I'm not familiar enough with
>> the statechain protocol. Here goes:
>>
>> Why do you need to use schnorr blind signatures for this? Are the blind
>> signatures being used to produce on-chain tx signatures or are they just
>> for credentials for transferring ownership (or are they for both). If they
>> are for on-chain txs then you won't be able to enforce that the signature
>> used was not generated maliciously so it doesn't seem to me like your trick
>> above would help you here. I can fully verify that the state chain
>> signatures were all produced non-maliciously but then there may be another
>> hidden forged signature that can take the on-chain funds that were produced
>> by malicious signing sessions I was never aware of (or how can you be sure
>> this isn't the case).
>>
>> Following on from that point, is it not possible to enforce sequential
>> blind signing in the statechain protocol under each key. With that you
>> don't have the problem of wagner's attack.
>>
>> LL
>>
>> On Wed, 9 Aug 2023 at 23:34, Tom Trevethan via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>> @moonsettler
>>>
>>> When anyone receives a coin (either as payment or as part of a swap)
>>> they need to perform a verification of all previous signatures and
>>> corresponding backup txs. If anything is missing, then the verification
>>> will fail. So anyone 'breaking the chain' by signing something
>>> incorrectly simply cannot then send that coin on.
>>>
>>> The second point is important. All the 'transfer data' (i.e. new and all
>>> previous backup txs, signatures and values) is encrypted with the new owner
>>> public key. But the server cannot know this pubkey as this would enable it
>>> to compute the full coin pubkey and identify it on-chain. Currently, the
>>> server identifies individual coins (shared keys) with a statechain_id
>>> identifier (unrelated to the coin outpoint), which is used by the coin
>>> receiver to retrieve the transfer data via the API. But this means the
>>> receiver must be sent this identifier out-of-band by the sender, and also
>>> that if anyone else learns it they can corrupt the server key
>>> share/signature chain via the API. One solution to this is to have a second
>>> non-identifying key used only for authenticating with the server. This
>>> would mean a 'statchain address' would then be composed of 2 separate
>>> pubkeys 1) for the shared taproot address and 2) for server authentication.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 6:44 PM moonsettler <moonsettler at protonmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Very nice! Is there an authentication mechanism to avoid 'breaking the
>>>> chain' with an unverifiable new state by a previous owner? Can the current
>>>> owner prove the knowledge of a non-identifying secret he learned as
>>>> recipient to the server that is related to the statechain tip?
>>>>
>>>> BR,
>>>> moonsettler
>>>>
>>>> ------- Original Message -------
>>>> On Monday, August 7th, 2023 at 2:55 AM, Tom Trevethan via bitcoin-dev <
>>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A follow up to this, I have updated the blinded statechain protocol
>>>> description to include the mitigation to the Wagner attack by requiring the
>>>> server to send R1 values only after commitments made to the server of the
>>>> R2 values used by the user, and that all the previous computed c values are
>>>> verified by each new statecoin owner.
>>>> https://github.com/commerceblock/mercury/blob/master/layer/protocol.md
>>>>
>>>> Essentially, the attack is possible because the server cannot verify
>>>> that the blinded challenge (c) value it has been sent by the user has been
>>>> computed honestly (i.e. c = SHA256(X1 + X2, R1 + R2, m) ), however this CAN
>>>> be verified by each new owner of a statecoin for all the previous
>>>> signatures.
>>>>
>>>> Each time an owner cooperates with the server to generate a signature
>>>> on a backup tx, the server will require that the owner send a commitment to
>>>> their R2 value: e.g. SHA256(R2). The server will store this value before
>>>> responding with it's R1 value. This way, the owner cannot choose the value
>>>> of R2 (and hence c).
>>>>
>>>> When the statecoin is received by a new owner, they will receive ALL
>>>> previous signed backup txs for that coin from the sender, and all the
>>>> corresponding R2 values used for each signature. They will then ask the
>>>> server (for each previous signature), the commitments SHA256(R2) and the
>>>> corresponding server generated R1 value and c value used. The new owner
>>>> will then verify that each backup tx is valid, and that each c value was
>>>> computed c = SHA256(X1 + X2, R1 + R2, m) and each commitment equals
>>>> SHA256(R2). This ensures that a previous owner could not have generated
>>>> more valid signatures than the server has partially signed.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jul 27, 2023 at 2:25 PM Tom Trevethan <tom at commerceblock.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jul 27, 2023 at 9:08 AM Jonas Nick <jonasdnick at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> No, proof of knowledge of the r values used to generate each R does
>>>>>> not prevent
>>>>>> Wagner's attack. I wrote
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Using Wagner's algorithm, choose R2[0], ..., R2[K-1] such that
>>>>>> > c[0] + ... + c[K-1] = c[K].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can think of this as actually choosing scalars r2[0], ...,
>>>>>> r2[K-1] and
>>>>>> define R2[i] = r2[i]*G. The attacker chooses r2[i]. The attack
>>>>>> wouldn't make
>>>>>> sense if he didn't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>
>>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20230814/56725037/attachment-0001.html>;