Mark Friedenbach [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2015-09-17 📝 Original message:Eric, that would be, I ...
📅 Original date posted:2015-09-17
📝 Original message:Eric, that would be, I think, my sequencenumbers2 branch in which nSequence
is an explicit relative lock-time field (unless the most significant bit is
set). That has absolutely clear semantics. You should comment on #6312
where this is being discussed.
On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 7:23 PM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'd rather replace the whole nSequence thing with an explicit relative
> locktime with clear semantics...but I'm not going to fight this one too
> much.
>
>
> On September 16, 2015 6:40:06 PM EDT, Btc Drak via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>> Where do we stand now on which sequencenumbers variation to use? We
>> really should make a decision now.
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 12:32 AM, Mark Friedenbach via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>> So I've created 2 new repositories with changed rules regarding
>>> sequencenumbers:
>>>
>>> https://github.com/maaku/bitcoin/tree/sequencenumbers2
>>>
>>> This repository inverts (un-inverts?) the sequence number. nSequence=1
>>> means 1 block relative lock-height. nSequence=LOCKTIME_THRESHOLD means 1
>>> second relative lock-height. nSequence>=0x80000000 (most significant bit
>>> set) is not interpreted as a relative lock-time.
>>>
>>> https://github.com/maaku/bitcoin/tree/sequencenumbers3
>>>
>>> This repository not only inverts the sequence number, but also
>>> interprets it as a fixed-point number. This allows up to 5 year relative
>>> lock times using blocks as units, and saves 12 low-order bits for future
>>> use. Or, up to about 2 year relative lock times using seconds as units, and
>>> saves 4 bits for future use without second-level granularity. More bits
>>> could be recovered from time-based locktimes by choosing a higher
>>> granularity (a soft-fork change if done correctly).
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 3:08 PM, Mark Friedenbach <mark at friedenbach.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> To follow up on this, let's say that you want to be able to have up to
>>>> 1 year relative lock-times. This choice is somewhat arbitrary and what I
>>>> would like some input on, but I'll come back to this point.
>>>>
>>>> * 1 bit is necessary to enable/disable relative lock-time.
>>>>
>>>> * 1 bit is necessary to indicate whether seconds vs blocks as the unit
>>>> of measurement.
>>>>
>>>> * 1 year of time with 1-second granularity requires 25 bits. However
>>>> since blocks occur at approximately 10 minute intervals on average, having
>>>> a relative lock-time significantly less than this interval doesn't make
>>>> much sense. A granularity of 256 seconds would be greater than the Nyquist
>>>> frequency and requires only 17 bits.
>>>>
>>>> * 1 year of blocks with 1-block granularity requires 16 bits.
>>>>
>>>> So time-based relative lock time requires about 19 bits, and
>>>> block-based relative lock-time requires about 18 bits. That leaves 13 or 14
>>>> bits for other uses.
>>>>
>>>> Assuming a maximum of 1-year relative lock-times. But what is an
>>>> appropriate maximum to choose? The use cases I have considered have only
>>>> had lock times on the order of a few days to a month or so. However I would
>>>> feel uncomfortable going less than a year for a hard maximum, and am having
>>>> trouble thinking of any use case that would require more than a year of
>>>> lock-time. Can anyone else think of a use case that requires >1yr relative
>>>> lock-time?
>>>>
>>>> TL;DR
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Aug 23, 2015 at 7:37 PM, Mark Friedenbach <mark at friedenbach.org
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> A power of 2 would be far more efficient here. The key question is how
>>>>> long of a relative block time do you need? Figure out what the maximum
>>>>> should be ( I don't know what that would be, any ideas?) and then see how
>>>>> many bits you have left over.
>>>>> On Aug 23, 2015 7:23 PM, "Jorge Timón" <
>>>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:01 AM, Gregory Maxwell via bitcoin-dev
>>>>>> <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>>> > Seperately, to Mark and Btcdrank: Adding an extra wrinkel to the
>>>>>> > discussion has any thought been given to represent one block with
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> > than one increment? This would leave additional space for future
>>>>>> > signaling, or allow, for example, higher resolution numbers for a
>>>>>> > sharechain commitement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, I don't think anybody thought about this. I just explained this to
>>>>>> Pieter using "for example, 10 instead of 1".
>>>>>> He suggested 600 increments so that it is more similar to timestamps.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>>>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>
>>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
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📝 Original message:Eric, that would be, I think, my sequencenumbers2 branch in which nSequence
is an explicit relative lock-time field (unless the most significant bit is
set). That has absolutely clear semantics. You should comment on #6312
where this is being discussed.
On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 7:23 PM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'd rather replace the whole nSequence thing with an explicit relative
> locktime with clear semantics...but I'm not going to fight this one too
> much.
>
>
> On September 16, 2015 6:40:06 PM EDT, Btc Drak via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>> Where do we stand now on which sequencenumbers variation to use? We
>> really should make a decision now.
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 12:32 AM, Mark Friedenbach via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>> So I've created 2 new repositories with changed rules regarding
>>> sequencenumbers:
>>>
>>> https://github.com/maaku/bitcoin/tree/sequencenumbers2
>>>
>>> This repository inverts (un-inverts?) the sequence number. nSequence=1
>>> means 1 block relative lock-height. nSequence=LOCKTIME_THRESHOLD means 1
>>> second relative lock-height. nSequence>=0x80000000 (most significant bit
>>> set) is not interpreted as a relative lock-time.
>>>
>>> https://github.com/maaku/bitcoin/tree/sequencenumbers3
>>>
>>> This repository not only inverts the sequence number, but also
>>> interprets it as a fixed-point number. This allows up to 5 year relative
>>> lock times using blocks as units, and saves 12 low-order bits for future
>>> use. Or, up to about 2 year relative lock times using seconds as units, and
>>> saves 4 bits for future use without second-level granularity. More bits
>>> could be recovered from time-based locktimes by choosing a higher
>>> granularity (a soft-fork change if done correctly).
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 3:08 PM, Mark Friedenbach <mark at friedenbach.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> To follow up on this, let's say that you want to be able to have up to
>>>> 1 year relative lock-times. This choice is somewhat arbitrary and what I
>>>> would like some input on, but I'll come back to this point.
>>>>
>>>> * 1 bit is necessary to enable/disable relative lock-time.
>>>>
>>>> * 1 bit is necessary to indicate whether seconds vs blocks as the unit
>>>> of measurement.
>>>>
>>>> * 1 year of time with 1-second granularity requires 25 bits. However
>>>> since blocks occur at approximately 10 minute intervals on average, having
>>>> a relative lock-time significantly less than this interval doesn't make
>>>> much sense. A granularity of 256 seconds would be greater than the Nyquist
>>>> frequency and requires only 17 bits.
>>>>
>>>> * 1 year of blocks with 1-block granularity requires 16 bits.
>>>>
>>>> So time-based relative lock time requires about 19 bits, and
>>>> block-based relative lock-time requires about 18 bits. That leaves 13 or 14
>>>> bits for other uses.
>>>>
>>>> Assuming a maximum of 1-year relative lock-times. But what is an
>>>> appropriate maximum to choose? The use cases I have considered have only
>>>> had lock times on the order of a few days to a month or so. However I would
>>>> feel uncomfortable going less than a year for a hard maximum, and am having
>>>> trouble thinking of any use case that would require more than a year of
>>>> lock-time. Can anyone else think of a use case that requires >1yr relative
>>>> lock-time?
>>>>
>>>> TL;DR
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Aug 23, 2015 at 7:37 PM, Mark Friedenbach <mark at friedenbach.org
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> A power of 2 would be far more efficient here. The key question is how
>>>>> long of a relative block time do you need? Figure out what the maximum
>>>>> should be ( I don't know what that would be, any ideas?) and then see how
>>>>> many bits you have left over.
>>>>> On Aug 23, 2015 7:23 PM, "Jorge Timón" <
>>>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:01 AM, Gregory Maxwell via bitcoin-dev
>>>>>> <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>>> > Seperately, to Mark and Btcdrank: Adding an extra wrinkel to the
>>>>>> > discussion has any thought been given to represent one block with
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> > than one increment? This would leave additional space for future
>>>>>> > signaling, or allow, for example, higher resolution numbers for a
>>>>>> > sharechain commitement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, I don't think anybody thought about this. I just explained this to
>>>>>> Pieter using "for example, 10 instead of 1".
>>>>>> He suggested 600 increments so that it is more similar to timestamps.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>>>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>
>>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
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