Marakesh ð“…¦ on Nostr: I pretty much agree with what you have said here and I see it similarly because I ...
I pretty much agree with what you have said here and I see it similarly because I also believe in free will. I take it you're not a Calvinist who believes that God has Himself pre-determined everything that will happen, because you allow for human freedom. Your description to me sounds more like what is called "middle knowledge" which refers to God's knowing all of the various choices a person could make and what would happen as a result.
Where Open Theism goes beyond middle knowledge, in my understanding (I haven't read anything on it, only heard it discussed), is that Open Theists view the ACTUAL future as unknown to God until it occurs; that God is learning and experiencing what happens almost like we do, except that He also knew all of the other possibilities of what could have happened. So in your example of David and Keilah from 1 Samuel 23, God knew all of the counterfactual possibilities of what could happen, according to whatever choice David would make, but He didn't exactly know which choice David would make until he actually did it. Once David made his choice, God then also did know by His foreknowledge what would result. But then what about all of the future choices that hadn't yet been made?
This differs from my more traditional, I believe, non-Open Theist view that God is omniscient, i.e., all-knowing, meaning that He not only knows all contingent realities of what could happen, but He also knows what choices we WILL freely make, while not determining them. God knew all of David's possible choices, and also what the people of Keilah would do if David chose a certain way, but God also knew in advance the choice David was actually going to make. But knowing what David would do in advance doesn't mean God decided it for him. Some people believe that God simply knowing what will happen determines the future, and I don't believe that is true out of necessity. I believe Calvinists view things this way (and Muslims, too, who also don't believe in free will), but there are numerous problems with that, including making God the author of evil!
I'm sure Open Theists don't want to deny God's omniscience, and so they would probably say that omniscience means that God knows everything there is to be known. He knows what actually can be known, but not what can't be known. Since the future hasn't actually happened until it occurs, God doesn't know something that is not yet actualized, that is, not real. To my mind, however, this views God too much like us humans; it ascribes our human limitations of knowledge (and time, as we experience it) to God. I believe God not only knows everything that could happen under various circumstances, but also what actually will happen, before our choices are made.
Judas Iscariot provides an example of this; it was God's plan to have Jesus betrayed and executed to atone for the sins of humanity. God knew that Judas would choose to betray Jesus, so Judas was the man for the job. But Jesus said it would have been better had Judas never even been born than to do what he did. So God knew in advance that Judas would betray Jesus, and that Judas would be wrong and punished for that, but Judas had the free will to choose differently, otherwise it would be unfair of God to punish him for something he had no choice in. God's middle knowledge and foreknowledge of what choice Judas would actually freely make is why God had Judas in that role. If God didn't actually know how Judas would choose, Judas possibly could have chosen to not betray Jesus, and God's plan would have not played out as He willed.
Sorry this got to be so lengthy. I didn't plan for it to be or know it would end up this long before I started writing! 😄 If you can point out how I may not be understanding Open Theism correctly, I'd be happy to hear it. I may need to do some reading on it!
Where Open Theism goes beyond middle knowledge, in my understanding (I haven't read anything on it, only heard it discussed), is that Open Theists view the ACTUAL future as unknown to God until it occurs; that God is learning and experiencing what happens almost like we do, except that He also knew all of the other possibilities of what could have happened. So in your example of David and Keilah from 1 Samuel 23, God knew all of the counterfactual possibilities of what could happen, according to whatever choice David would make, but He didn't exactly know which choice David would make until he actually did it. Once David made his choice, God then also did know by His foreknowledge what would result. But then what about all of the future choices that hadn't yet been made?
This differs from my more traditional, I believe, non-Open Theist view that God is omniscient, i.e., all-knowing, meaning that He not only knows all contingent realities of what could happen, but He also knows what choices we WILL freely make, while not determining them. God knew all of David's possible choices, and also what the people of Keilah would do if David chose a certain way, but God also knew in advance the choice David was actually going to make. But knowing what David would do in advance doesn't mean God decided it for him. Some people believe that God simply knowing what will happen determines the future, and I don't believe that is true out of necessity. I believe Calvinists view things this way (and Muslims, too, who also don't believe in free will), but there are numerous problems with that, including making God the author of evil!
I'm sure Open Theists don't want to deny God's omniscience, and so they would probably say that omniscience means that God knows everything there is to be known. He knows what actually can be known, but not what can't be known. Since the future hasn't actually happened until it occurs, God doesn't know something that is not yet actualized, that is, not real. To my mind, however, this views God too much like us humans; it ascribes our human limitations of knowledge (and time, as we experience it) to God. I believe God not only knows everything that could happen under various circumstances, but also what actually will happen, before our choices are made.
Judas Iscariot provides an example of this; it was God's plan to have Jesus betrayed and executed to atone for the sins of humanity. God knew that Judas would choose to betray Jesus, so Judas was the man for the job. But Jesus said it would have been better had Judas never even been born than to do what he did. So God knew in advance that Judas would betray Jesus, and that Judas would be wrong and punished for that, but Judas had the free will to choose differently, otherwise it would be unfair of God to punish him for something he had no choice in. God's middle knowledge and foreknowledge of what choice Judas would actually freely make is why God had Judas in that role. If God didn't actually know how Judas would choose, Judas possibly could have chosen to not betray Jesus, and God's plan would have not played out as He willed.
Sorry this got to be so lengthy. I didn't plan for it to be or know it would end up this long before I started writing! 😄 If you can point out how I may not be understanding Open Theism correctly, I'd be happy to hear it. I may need to do some reading on it!