David Vorick [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: đź“… Original date posted:2017-04-19 đź“ť Original message:On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at ...
đź“… Original date posted:2017-04-19
đź“ť Original message:On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 3:43 AM, Jonas Schnelli <dev at jonasschnelli.ch>
wrote:
>
> Hi Dave
>
> *1. I agree that we need to have a way for pruned nodes to partially serve
> historical blocks.*
> My personal measurements told me that around ~80% of historical block
> serving are between tip and -1’000 blocks.
> Currently, Core nodes have only two modes of operations, „server all
> historical blocks“ or „none“.
> This makes little sense especially if you prune to a target size of, lets
> say, 80GB (~80% of the chain).
> Ideally, there would be a mode where your full node can signal a third
> mode „I keep the last 1000 blocks“ (or make this more dynamic).
>
That probably makes sense with small nodes too. The past 1000 blocks are
such a small footprint compared to the rest of the chain.
>
> *2. Bootstrapping new peers*
> I’m not sure if full nodes must be the single point of historical data
> storage. Full nodes provide a valuable service (verification, relay,
> filtering, etc.). I’m not sure if serving historical blocks is one of them.
> Historical blocks could be made available on CDN’s or other file storage
> networks. You are going to verify them anyways,... the serving part is pure
> data storage.
> I’m also pretty sure that some users have stopping running full nodes
> because their upstream bandwidth consumption (because of serving historical
> blocks) was getting intolerable.
> Especially „consumer“ peers must have been hit by this (little experience
> in how to reduce traffic, upstream in general is bad for
> consumers-connections, little resources in general).
>
Perhaps it is not, but I would think that it would be pretty
straightforward to configure a global bandwidth limit within Bitcoin. I
know many torrent clients, and clients for protocols like Tor and i2p
include the ability to set both speed limits and monthly bandwidth limits.
Shipping core with sane default limits is probably sufficient to solve
bandwidth issues for most users. I don't know if default limits may result
in today's archive nodes pulling less weight though - changing the defaults
to have limits may slow the network down as a whole.
In my experience (living in a city where most people have uncapped
connections), disk usage is usually the bigger issue, but certainly
bandwidth is a known problem (especially for rural users) as well.
>
> Having a second option built into full nodes (or as an external bootstrap
> service/app) how to download historical blocks during bootstrapping could
> probably be a relieve for "small nodes“.
> It could be a little daemon that downloads historical blocks from CDN’s,
> etc. and feeds them into your full node over p2p/8333 and kickstarts your
> bootstrapping without bothering valuable peers.
> Or, the alternative download, could be built into the full nodes main
> logic.
> And, if it wasn’t obvious, this must not bypass the verification!
>
I worry about any type of CDN being a central point of failure. CDNs cost
money, which means someone is footing the bill. Torrenting typically relies
on a DHT, which is much easier to attack than Bitcoin's peer network. It's
possible that a decentralized CDN could be used, but I don't think any yet
exist (though I am building one for unrelated reasons) which are both
sufficiently secure and incentive-compatible to be considered as an
alternative to using full nodes to bootstrap.
I just don't want to end up in a situation where 90% of users are getting
their blockchain from the same 3 websites or centralized services. And I
also don't want to rely on any p2p solution which would not stand up to a
serious adversary. Right now, I think the bitcoin p2p network is by
significant margin the best we've got. The landscape for decentralized data
distribution is evolving rapidly though, perhaps in a few years there will
be a superior alternative.
> *To your proposal:*
> - Isn’t there a tiny finger-printing element if peers have to pick an
> segmentation index?
> - SPV bloom filter clients can’t use fragmented blocks to filter txns?
> Right? How could they avoid connecting to those peers?
>
> </jonas>
>
Yes, there is finger-print that happens if you have nodes pick an index.
And the fingerprint gets a lot worse if you have a node pick multiple
indexes. Though, isn't it already required that nodes have some sort of IP
address or hidden service domain? I want to say that the fingerprint
created by picking an index is not a big deal, because it can be separated
from activity like transaction relaying and mining. Though, I am not
certain and perhaps it is a problem.
To be honest, I hadn't really considered SPV nodes at the time of writing.
Small nodes would still be seeing all of the new blocks, and per your
suggestion may also be storing the 1000 or so most recent blocks, but SPV
nodes would still need some way to find all of their historical
transactions. The problem is not fetching blocks, it's figuring out which
blocks are worth fetching. It may be sufficient to have nodes store a bloom
filter for each block indicating which addresses had activity. The bloom
filter would probably only need to be about 1% of the size of the full
block. That's not too much overhead (now you are storing 21% of the block
instead of just 20%), and would retain SPV compatibility.
On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 12:17 PM, praxeology_guy <
praxeology_guy at protonmail.com> wrote:
>
> FYI With unspent coin snapshots, needing archive data becomes less
> important. People can synchronize from a later snapshot instead of the
> genesis block. See https://petertodd.org/2016/delayed-txo-commitments
> for my current favorite idea.
>
>
This is something that I think could help a lot too. If the build processes
included verifying the chain and then creating a utxo snapshot at say,
block 400,000, then nodes would no longer need to download, store, upload,
or share blocks prior to that height. It means that a reorg deeper than
that point would hardfork the network. But a reorg 60k blocks deep is going
to cause problems worse than a network split. Then, the only people who
would ever need to care about the early blocks are developers, and it's
more reasonable to expect developers to go through a longer process and
have more resources than everyday users.
On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 6:14 AM, Aymeric Vitte via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> While I fully agree with the intent (increasing full nodes so a big miner
> waking up in a bad mood can't threaten the world any longer every day as it
> is now) I am not sure to get the interest of this proposal, because:
>
> - it's probably not a good idea to encourage the home users to run full
> nodes, there are many people running servers far from their capacity that
> could easily run efficient full nodes
>
Running a full node is the only way to avoid needing to trust others. It's
also how you make your opinion worthwhile for events like hard forks and
UASFs. If decentralization is the primary motivation, it absolutely makes
sense to encourage people to run their own full nodes. Without a full node,
you are at the mercy of the governance decisions by those who do have full
nodes. But if you have a full node, you can chose to opt-out of any upgrade
(example: ethereum classic nodes).
> - if someone can't allocate 100 GB today to run a full node, then we can't
> expect him to allocate more in the future
>
That's why I'm proposing something to decrease the storage requirements.
> - this proposal is a kind of reinventing torrents, while limiting the
> number of connections to something not efficient at all, I don't see why
> something that is proven to be super efficient (torrents) would be needed
> to be reinvented, I am not saying that it should be used as the bittorrent
> network is doing but the concepts can be reused
>
It's different from torrents in that it uses specialized erasure coding to
make sure that every block is always available, even if an adversary is
running around targeting all the nodes with a particular piece.
> - I don't get at all the concept of "archival" nodes since it's another
> useless step toward centralization
>
"archival" nodes are simply nodes with the full blockchain. Nobody can
bootstrap on the network without them. Today, every bitcoin-core node is an
archival node by default.
> I think the only way to increase full nodes it to design an incentive for
> people to run them
>
The primary incentive is the sovereignty that it gives you. Running a
Bitcoin full node gives you security and protection against political
garbage that you can't get any other way. The network does currently depend
on altruism to allow people to download the blockchain, but as long as we
can keep the resource requirements of this altruism low, I think we can
expect it to continue. This proposal attempts to keep those requirements
low.
On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 6:50 AM, Tom Zander <tomz at freedommail.ch> wrote:
> On Monday, 17 April 2017 08:54:49 CEST David Vorick via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> > The best alternative today to storing the full blockchain is to run a
> > pruned node
>
> The idea looks a little overly complex to me.
>
> I suggested something similar which is a much simpler version;
> https://zander.github.io/scaling/Pruning/
>
> > # Random pruning mode
> >
> > There is a large gap between the two current modes of everything
> > (currently 75GB) and only what we need (2GB or so).
> >
> > This mode would have two areas, it would keep a days worth of blocks to
> > make sure that any reorgs etc would not cause a re-download, but it would
> > have additionally have an area that can be used to store historical data
> > to be shared on the network. Maybe 20 or 50GB.
> >
> > One main feature of Bitcoin is that we have massive replication. Each
> node
> > currently holds all the same data that every other node holds. But this
> > doesn't have to be the case with pruned nodes. A node itself has no need
> > for historic data at all.
> >
> > The suggestion is that a node stores a random set of blocks. Dropping
> > random blocks as the node runs out of disk-space. Additionally, we would
> > introduce a new way to download blocks from other nodes which allows the
> > node to say it doesn't actually have the block requested.
> >
> > The effect of this setup is that many different nodes together end up
> > having the total amount of blocks, even though each node only has a
> > fraction of the total amount.
>
> --
> Tom Zander
> Blog: https://zander.github.io
> Vlog: https://vimeo.com/channels/tomscryptochannel
>
Your proposal has a significant disadvantage: If every peer is dropping 75%
of all blocks randomly, then you need to connect to a large number of peers
to download the whole blockchain. Any given peer has a 25% chance of
holding a block, or rather, a 75% chance of not holding a block. If you
have n peers, your probability of not being able to download a given block
is 0.75^n. If you are downloading 450,000 blocks, you will need to connect
to an expected 46 peers to download the whole blockchain.
Your proposal is also a lot less able to handle active adversaries: if
nodes are randomly dropping blocks, the probability that one block in
particular is dropped by everyone goes up significantly. And the problem
gets a lot worse in the presence of an active adversary. If there are 8000
nodes each dropping 75% of the blocks, then each block on average will only
be held by 2000 nodes. Probabilistically, some unlucky blocks will be held
by fewer than 2000 nodes. An active adversary needs only to eliminate about
2000 nodes (a chosen 2000 nodes) to knock a block off of the network. But
missing even a single block is a significant problem.
Your proposal essentially requires that archive nodes still exist and be a
part of a typical blockchain download. Given that, I don't think it would
be a sound idea to ship as a default in bitcoin core.
On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 9:07 AM, Tier Nolan via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> This has been discussed before.
>
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/
> 2015-May/008101.html
>
> including a list of nice to have features by Maxwell
>
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/
> 2015-May/008110.html
>
> You meet most of these rules, though you do have to download blocks from
> multiple peers.
>
> The suggestion in that thread were for a way to compactly indicate which
> blocks a node has. Each node would then store a sub-set of all the
> blocks. You just download the blocks you want from the node that has them.
>
> Each node would be recommended to store the last few days worth anyway.
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
I believe that my proposal does meet all of the requirements listed by
Maxwell. Having a set of 8 random peers gives you a very high probability
of being able to recover every single block. You would need to connect to
at least 5 peers (and this is already >90% likely to be sufficient to
recover every block), but if you cannot connect to 5 random peers your node
is probably in trouble anyway. Highly parallel, high speed downloads are
just as possible with small nodes as with archive nodes. It only takes a
few bytes to indicate which part of the blockchain you have, and any 2
peers have a less than 1% chance of overlapping.
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đź“ť Original message:On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 3:43 AM, Jonas Schnelli <dev at jonasschnelli.ch>
wrote:
>
> Hi Dave
>
> *1. I agree that we need to have a way for pruned nodes to partially serve
> historical blocks.*
> My personal measurements told me that around ~80% of historical block
> serving are between tip and -1’000 blocks.
> Currently, Core nodes have only two modes of operations, „server all
> historical blocks“ or „none“.
> This makes little sense especially if you prune to a target size of, lets
> say, 80GB (~80% of the chain).
> Ideally, there would be a mode where your full node can signal a third
> mode „I keep the last 1000 blocks“ (or make this more dynamic).
>
That probably makes sense with small nodes too. The past 1000 blocks are
such a small footprint compared to the rest of the chain.
>
> *2. Bootstrapping new peers*
> I’m not sure if full nodes must be the single point of historical data
> storage. Full nodes provide a valuable service (verification, relay,
> filtering, etc.). I’m not sure if serving historical blocks is one of them.
> Historical blocks could be made available on CDN’s or other file storage
> networks. You are going to verify them anyways,... the serving part is pure
> data storage.
> I’m also pretty sure that some users have stopping running full nodes
> because their upstream bandwidth consumption (because of serving historical
> blocks) was getting intolerable.
> Especially „consumer“ peers must have been hit by this (little experience
> in how to reduce traffic, upstream in general is bad for
> consumers-connections, little resources in general).
>
Perhaps it is not, but I would think that it would be pretty
straightforward to configure a global bandwidth limit within Bitcoin. I
know many torrent clients, and clients for protocols like Tor and i2p
include the ability to set both speed limits and monthly bandwidth limits.
Shipping core with sane default limits is probably sufficient to solve
bandwidth issues for most users. I don't know if default limits may result
in today's archive nodes pulling less weight though - changing the defaults
to have limits may slow the network down as a whole.
In my experience (living in a city where most people have uncapped
connections), disk usage is usually the bigger issue, but certainly
bandwidth is a known problem (especially for rural users) as well.
>
> Having a second option built into full nodes (or as an external bootstrap
> service/app) how to download historical blocks during bootstrapping could
> probably be a relieve for "small nodes“.
> It could be a little daemon that downloads historical blocks from CDN’s,
> etc. and feeds them into your full node over p2p/8333 and kickstarts your
> bootstrapping without bothering valuable peers.
> Or, the alternative download, could be built into the full nodes main
> logic.
> And, if it wasn’t obvious, this must not bypass the verification!
>
I worry about any type of CDN being a central point of failure. CDNs cost
money, which means someone is footing the bill. Torrenting typically relies
on a DHT, which is much easier to attack than Bitcoin's peer network. It's
possible that a decentralized CDN could be used, but I don't think any yet
exist (though I am building one for unrelated reasons) which are both
sufficiently secure and incentive-compatible to be considered as an
alternative to using full nodes to bootstrap.
I just don't want to end up in a situation where 90% of users are getting
their blockchain from the same 3 websites or centralized services. And I
also don't want to rely on any p2p solution which would not stand up to a
serious adversary. Right now, I think the bitcoin p2p network is by
significant margin the best we've got. The landscape for decentralized data
distribution is evolving rapidly though, perhaps in a few years there will
be a superior alternative.
> *To your proposal:*
> - Isn’t there a tiny finger-printing element if peers have to pick an
> segmentation index?
> - SPV bloom filter clients can’t use fragmented blocks to filter txns?
> Right? How could they avoid connecting to those peers?
>
> </jonas>
>
Yes, there is finger-print that happens if you have nodes pick an index.
And the fingerprint gets a lot worse if you have a node pick multiple
indexes. Though, isn't it already required that nodes have some sort of IP
address or hidden service domain? I want to say that the fingerprint
created by picking an index is not a big deal, because it can be separated
from activity like transaction relaying and mining. Though, I am not
certain and perhaps it is a problem.
To be honest, I hadn't really considered SPV nodes at the time of writing.
Small nodes would still be seeing all of the new blocks, and per your
suggestion may also be storing the 1000 or so most recent blocks, but SPV
nodes would still need some way to find all of their historical
transactions. The problem is not fetching blocks, it's figuring out which
blocks are worth fetching. It may be sufficient to have nodes store a bloom
filter for each block indicating which addresses had activity. The bloom
filter would probably only need to be about 1% of the size of the full
block. That's not too much overhead (now you are storing 21% of the block
instead of just 20%), and would retain SPV compatibility.
On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 12:17 PM, praxeology_guy <
praxeology_guy at protonmail.com> wrote:
>
> FYI With unspent coin snapshots, needing archive data becomes less
> important. People can synchronize from a later snapshot instead of the
> genesis block. See https://petertodd.org/2016/delayed-txo-commitments
> for my current favorite idea.
>
>
This is something that I think could help a lot too. If the build processes
included verifying the chain and then creating a utxo snapshot at say,
block 400,000, then nodes would no longer need to download, store, upload,
or share blocks prior to that height. It means that a reorg deeper than
that point would hardfork the network. But a reorg 60k blocks deep is going
to cause problems worse than a network split. Then, the only people who
would ever need to care about the early blocks are developers, and it's
more reasonable to expect developers to go through a longer process and
have more resources than everyday users.
On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 6:14 AM, Aymeric Vitte via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> While I fully agree with the intent (increasing full nodes so a big miner
> waking up in a bad mood can't threaten the world any longer every day as it
> is now) I am not sure to get the interest of this proposal, because:
>
> - it's probably not a good idea to encourage the home users to run full
> nodes, there are many people running servers far from their capacity that
> could easily run efficient full nodes
>
Running a full node is the only way to avoid needing to trust others. It's
also how you make your opinion worthwhile for events like hard forks and
UASFs. If decentralization is the primary motivation, it absolutely makes
sense to encourage people to run their own full nodes. Without a full node,
you are at the mercy of the governance decisions by those who do have full
nodes. But if you have a full node, you can chose to opt-out of any upgrade
(example: ethereum classic nodes).
> - if someone can't allocate 100 GB today to run a full node, then we can't
> expect him to allocate more in the future
>
That's why I'm proposing something to decrease the storage requirements.
> - this proposal is a kind of reinventing torrents, while limiting the
> number of connections to something not efficient at all, I don't see why
> something that is proven to be super efficient (torrents) would be needed
> to be reinvented, I am not saying that it should be used as the bittorrent
> network is doing but the concepts can be reused
>
It's different from torrents in that it uses specialized erasure coding to
make sure that every block is always available, even if an adversary is
running around targeting all the nodes with a particular piece.
> - I don't get at all the concept of "archival" nodes since it's another
> useless step toward centralization
>
"archival" nodes are simply nodes with the full blockchain. Nobody can
bootstrap on the network without them. Today, every bitcoin-core node is an
archival node by default.
> I think the only way to increase full nodes it to design an incentive for
> people to run them
>
The primary incentive is the sovereignty that it gives you. Running a
Bitcoin full node gives you security and protection against political
garbage that you can't get any other way. The network does currently depend
on altruism to allow people to download the blockchain, but as long as we
can keep the resource requirements of this altruism low, I think we can
expect it to continue. This proposal attempts to keep those requirements
low.
On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 6:50 AM, Tom Zander <tomz at freedommail.ch> wrote:
> On Monday, 17 April 2017 08:54:49 CEST David Vorick via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> > The best alternative today to storing the full blockchain is to run a
> > pruned node
>
> The idea looks a little overly complex to me.
>
> I suggested something similar which is a much simpler version;
> https://zander.github.io/scaling/Pruning/
>
> > # Random pruning mode
> >
> > There is a large gap between the two current modes of everything
> > (currently 75GB) and only what we need (2GB or so).
> >
> > This mode would have two areas, it would keep a days worth of blocks to
> > make sure that any reorgs etc would not cause a re-download, but it would
> > have additionally have an area that can be used to store historical data
> > to be shared on the network. Maybe 20 or 50GB.
> >
> > One main feature of Bitcoin is that we have massive replication. Each
> node
> > currently holds all the same data that every other node holds. But this
> > doesn't have to be the case with pruned nodes. A node itself has no need
> > for historic data at all.
> >
> > The suggestion is that a node stores a random set of blocks. Dropping
> > random blocks as the node runs out of disk-space. Additionally, we would
> > introduce a new way to download blocks from other nodes which allows the
> > node to say it doesn't actually have the block requested.
> >
> > The effect of this setup is that many different nodes together end up
> > having the total amount of blocks, even though each node only has a
> > fraction of the total amount.
>
> --
> Tom Zander
> Blog: https://zander.github.io
> Vlog: https://vimeo.com/channels/tomscryptochannel
>
Your proposal has a significant disadvantage: If every peer is dropping 75%
of all blocks randomly, then you need to connect to a large number of peers
to download the whole blockchain. Any given peer has a 25% chance of
holding a block, or rather, a 75% chance of not holding a block. If you
have n peers, your probability of not being able to download a given block
is 0.75^n. If you are downloading 450,000 blocks, you will need to connect
to an expected 46 peers to download the whole blockchain.
Your proposal is also a lot less able to handle active adversaries: if
nodes are randomly dropping blocks, the probability that one block in
particular is dropped by everyone goes up significantly. And the problem
gets a lot worse in the presence of an active adversary. If there are 8000
nodes each dropping 75% of the blocks, then each block on average will only
be held by 2000 nodes. Probabilistically, some unlucky blocks will be held
by fewer than 2000 nodes. An active adversary needs only to eliminate about
2000 nodes (a chosen 2000 nodes) to knock a block off of the network. But
missing even a single block is a significant problem.
Your proposal essentially requires that archive nodes still exist and be a
part of a typical blockchain download. Given that, I don't think it would
be a sound idea to ship as a default in bitcoin core.
On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 9:07 AM, Tier Nolan via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> This has been discussed before.
>
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/
> 2015-May/008101.html
>
> including a list of nice to have features by Maxwell
>
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/
> 2015-May/008110.html
>
> You meet most of these rules, though you do have to download blocks from
> multiple peers.
>
> The suggestion in that thread were for a way to compactly indicate which
> blocks a node has. Each node would then store a sub-set of all the
> blocks. You just download the blocks you want from the node that has them.
>
> Each node would be recommended to store the last few days worth anyway.
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
I believe that my proposal does meet all of the requirements listed by
Maxwell. Having a set of 8 random peers gives you a very high probability
of being able to recover every single block. You would need to connect to
at least 5 peers (and this is already >90% likely to be sufficient to
recover every block), but if you cannot connect to 5 random peers your node
is probably in trouble anyway. Highly parallel, high speed downloads are
just as possible with small nodes as with archive nodes. It only takes a
few bytes to indicate which part of the blockchain you have, and any 2
peers have a less than 1% chance of overlapping.
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