Alex Kotenko [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: š Original date posted:2014-06-16 š Original message:Hi Lawrence/All I'm afraid ...
š
Original date posted:2014-06-16
š Original message:Hi Lawrence/All
I'm afraid with this BIP for TTP of instant transactions we will end up in
VISA world again. As I see it - it's not about if the TTPs will centralize,
it's only when. Simply because if economy of scales makes growth profitable
and coming into this market is at least a little expensive - this
(centralization, VISA world) will happen, sooner rather than later.
And while some may argue that coming to market in Bitcoin world is cheap so
the crowd will always have a chance to come in and beat the monopolists -
think of one thing. Right now Bitcoin is not seen as money and not
regulated accordingly anywhere in the world, thanks God, but how many years
away we are from the point when it will start to be regulated that way? And
once it is - the monopolies will make sure that rules are restrictive
enough to prevent competition, especially in conjunction with economy of
scales playing against the small newcomers.
The "instant providers list" is susceptible to regulatory influence, and
once in place and widespread - it will be a timebomb under Bitcoin. We need
to solve the doublespend issue without TTP involvement, or at least without
even a slight chance of making this involvement regulateable. Otherwise I
think the Bitcoin experiment will fail.
Best regards,
Alex Kotenko
2014-06-16 18:16 GMT+01:00 Lawrence Nahum <lawrence at greenaddress.it>:
> Mike Hearn <mike <at> plan99.net> writes:
>
> > As long as miners stick to Satoshi's first seen rule, which is the
> default, it's useful:
> >
> >
> > https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=423.msg3819#msg3819
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > (this is the famous "snack machine" thread from 2010)
> >
> > If they decide to change to something like highest-fee-always-wins, then
> they (again) centralise things by forcing all instant transactions to pay
> GreenAddress and its competitors money - much though I like your product
> Lawrence, let's hope they don't collectively lemming us all off a cliff by
> doing that ;)
>
>
> I assume we can't enforce to miners rules about which tx will go in and
> which won't and therefore whether this will cause more or less double
> spends.
>
>
> I mean, you can try but I would rather have to option to pick an third
> party
> instant provider explicitly than enforce bigger rules on mining which
> would
> IMHO lead to implicit centralization.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutions
> Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
> Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data.
> Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing & Easy Data Exploration
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
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š Original message:Hi Lawrence/All
I'm afraid with this BIP for TTP of instant transactions we will end up in
VISA world again. As I see it - it's not about if the TTPs will centralize,
it's only when. Simply because if economy of scales makes growth profitable
and coming into this market is at least a little expensive - this
(centralization, VISA world) will happen, sooner rather than later.
And while some may argue that coming to market in Bitcoin world is cheap so
the crowd will always have a chance to come in and beat the monopolists -
think of one thing. Right now Bitcoin is not seen as money and not
regulated accordingly anywhere in the world, thanks God, but how many years
away we are from the point when it will start to be regulated that way? And
once it is - the monopolies will make sure that rules are restrictive
enough to prevent competition, especially in conjunction with economy of
scales playing against the small newcomers.
The "instant providers list" is susceptible to regulatory influence, and
once in place and widespread - it will be a timebomb under Bitcoin. We need
to solve the doublespend issue without TTP involvement, or at least without
even a slight chance of making this involvement regulateable. Otherwise I
think the Bitcoin experiment will fail.
Best regards,
Alex Kotenko
2014-06-16 18:16 GMT+01:00 Lawrence Nahum <lawrence at greenaddress.it>:
> Mike Hearn <mike <at> plan99.net> writes:
>
> > As long as miners stick to Satoshi's first seen rule, which is the
> default, it's useful:
> >
> >
> > https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=423.msg3819#msg3819
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > (this is the famous "snack machine" thread from 2010)
> >
> > If they decide to change to something like highest-fee-always-wins, then
> they (again) centralise things by forcing all instant transactions to pay
> GreenAddress and its competitors money - much though I like your product
> Lawrence, let's hope they don't collectively lemming us all off a cliff by
> doing that ;)
>
>
> I assume we can't enforce to miners rules about which tx will go in and
> which won't and therefore whether this will cause more or less double
> spends.
>
>
> I mean, you can try but I would rather have to option to pick an third
> party
> instant provider explicitly than enforce bigger rules on mining which
> would
> IMHO lead to implicit centralization.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutions
> Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
> Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data.
> Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing & Easy Data Exploration
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
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