Jeff Garzik [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: đź“… Original date posted:2015-06-14 đź“ť Original message:Exactly -- both block size ...
đź“… Original date posted:2015-06-14
đź“ť Original message:Exactly -- both block size proponents and block size change conservatives
seem to be glossing over this aspect - much to my dismay.
Choosing the size limit is choosing the size of a scarce resource. By fiat.
It is wrong to think that a "technical consensus" can choose what is best
here.
The block size limit defines the scope of a resource for which all fee
market actors bid. That, in turn, defines who is in the fee market and how
they behave, what market choices are made.
It doesn't matter how or why the limit was originally enacted, what Satoshi
meant to do. What matters, economically, is what is. What the software
and our $3B economy & market knows and sees today. (I think some block
size change proponents miss this!)
The solution lies in transitioning this size limit to the free market. In
the end, the users must choose their desired level of growth,
decentralization, etc. We cannot rely on some dev's idea of the proper
level of fee, proper level of growth, proper level of decentralization.
And IMO, a "floating limit with training wheels" is better and stronger for
bitcoin's health from a governance, user choice and free market perspective
than simply "hard fork to 2MB, come back again in 6 months."
On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 6:34 AM, Benjamin <benjamin.l.cordes at gmail.com>
wrote:
> "The size limit is an economic policy lever that needs to be
> transitioned -away- from software and software developers, to the free
> market."
>
> Exactly right. Bitcoin does not have a free market for fee though, and
> literally all the discussion so far has neglected some fundamental
> aspect of this, as you described. It's not at all a "technical" or
> "engineering" decision. It's the question of how to potentially
> re-design a fundamental part of Bitcoin, and the proposals so far
> don't address this. What is the price of the scarce resource of the
> blockchain and the mechanism to decide on price, once the subsidy runs
> out?
>
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 12:06 PM, Mats Henricson <mats at henricson.se>
> wrote:
> > Jeff,
> >
> > with all due respect, but I've seen you saying this a few times
> > now, that this decision is oh so difficult and important.
> >
> > But this is not helpful. We all know that. Even I.
> >
> > Make a suggestion, or stay out of the debate!
> >
> > Mats
> >
> > On 06/14/2015 07:36 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
> >> The choice is very real and on-point. What should the block size limit
> >> be? Why?
> >>
> >> There is a large consensus that it needs increasing. To what? By what
> >> factor?
> >>
> >> The size limit literally defines the fee market, the whole damn thing.
> If
> >> software high priests choose a size limit of 300k, space is scarce, fees
> >> are bid high. If software high priests choose a size limit of 32mb,
> space
> >> is plentiful, fees are near zero. Market actors take their signals
> >> accordingly. Some business models boom, some business models fail, as a
> >> direct result of changing this unintentionally-added speedbump.
> Different
> >> users value adoption, decentralization etc. differently.
> >>
> >> The size limit is an economic policy lever that needs to be transitioned
> >> -away- from software and software developers, to the free market.
> >>
> >> A simple, e.g. hard fork to 2MB or 4MB does not fix higher level
> governance
> >> problems associated with actors lobbying developers, even if a
> cloistered
> >> and vetted Technical Advisory Board as has been proposed.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 1:20 AM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I definitely think we need some voting system for metaconsensus…but if
> >>> we’re going to seriously consider this we should look at the problem
> much
> >>> more generally. Using false choices doesn’t really help, though ;)
> >>>
> >>> - Eric Lombrozo
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Jun 13, 2015, at 10:13 PM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik at bitpay.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 1:08 AM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo at gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> 2) BIP100 has direct economic consequences…and particularly for
> miners.
> >>>> It lends itself to much greater corruptibility.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> What is the alternative? Have a Chief Scientist or Technical Advisory
> >>> Board choose what is a proper fee, what is a proper level of
> >>> decentralization, a proper growth factor?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> >> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> >>
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
> > Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
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đź“ť Original message:Exactly -- both block size proponents and block size change conservatives
seem to be glossing over this aspect - much to my dismay.
Choosing the size limit is choosing the size of a scarce resource. By fiat.
It is wrong to think that a "technical consensus" can choose what is best
here.
The block size limit defines the scope of a resource for which all fee
market actors bid. That, in turn, defines who is in the fee market and how
they behave, what market choices are made.
It doesn't matter how or why the limit was originally enacted, what Satoshi
meant to do. What matters, economically, is what is. What the software
and our $3B economy & market knows and sees today. (I think some block
size change proponents miss this!)
The solution lies in transitioning this size limit to the free market. In
the end, the users must choose their desired level of growth,
decentralization, etc. We cannot rely on some dev's idea of the proper
level of fee, proper level of growth, proper level of decentralization.
And IMO, a "floating limit with training wheels" is better and stronger for
bitcoin's health from a governance, user choice and free market perspective
than simply "hard fork to 2MB, come back again in 6 months."
On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 6:34 AM, Benjamin <benjamin.l.cordes at gmail.com>
wrote:
> "The size limit is an economic policy lever that needs to be
> transitioned -away- from software and software developers, to the free
> market."
>
> Exactly right. Bitcoin does not have a free market for fee though, and
> literally all the discussion so far has neglected some fundamental
> aspect of this, as you described. It's not at all a "technical" or
> "engineering" decision. It's the question of how to potentially
> re-design a fundamental part of Bitcoin, and the proposals so far
> don't address this. What is the price of the scarce resource of the
> blockchain and the mechanism to decide on price, once the subsidy runs
> out?
>
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 12:06 PM, Mats Henricson <mats at henricson.se>
> wrote:
> > Jeff,
> >
> > with all due respect, but I've seen you saying this a few times
> > now, that this decision is oh so difficult and important.
> >
> > But this is not helpful. We all know that. Even I.
> >
> > Make a suggestion, or stay out of the debate!
> >
> > Mats
> >
> > On 06/14/2015 07:36 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
> >> The choice is very real and on-point. What should the block size limit
> >> be? Why?
> >>
> >> There is a large consensus that it needs increasing. To what? By what
> >> factor?
> >>
> >> The size limit literally defines the fee market, the whole damn thing.
> If
> >> software high priests choose a size limit of 300k, space is scarce, fees
> >> are bid high. If software high priests choose a size limit of 32mb,
> space
> >> is plentiful, fees are near zero. Market actors take their signals
> >> accordingly. Some business models boom, some business models fail, as a
> >> direct result of changing this unintentionally-added speedbump.
> Different
> >> users value adoption, decentralization etc. differently.
> >>
> >> The size limit is an economic policy lever that needs to be transitioned
> >> -away- from software and software developers, to the free market.
> >>
> >> A simple, e.g. hard fork to 2MB or 4MB does not fix higher level
> governance
> >> problems associated with actors lobbying developers, even if a
> cloistered
> >> and vetted Technical Advisory Board as has been proposed.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 1:20 AM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I definitely think we need some voting system for metaconsensus…but if
> >>> we’re going to seriously consider this we should look at the problem
> much
> >>> more generally. Using false choices doesn’t really help, though ;)
> >>>
> >>> - Eric Lombrozo
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Jun 13, 2015, at 10:13 PM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik at bitpay.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 1:08 AM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo at gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> 2) BIP100 has direct economic consequences…and particularly for
> miners.
> >>>> It lends itself to much greater corruptibility.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> What is the alternative? Have a Chief Scientist or Technical Advisory
> >>> Board choose what is a proper fee, what is a proper level of
> >>> decentralization, a proper growth factor?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> >> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> >>
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
> > Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
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