Matthew Beton [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2017-08-22 📝 Original message:Very true, if Moore's law ...
📅 Original date posted:2017-08-22
📝 Original message:Very true, if Moore's law is still functional in 200 years, computers will
be 2^100 times faster (possibly more if quantum computing becomes
commonplace), and so old wallets may be easily cracked.
We will need a way to force people to use newer, higher security wallets,
and turning coins to mining rewards is better solution than them just being
hacked.
On Tue, 22 Aug 2017, 7:24 pm Thomas Guyot-Sionnest <dermoth at aei.ca> wrote:
> In any case when Hal Finney do not wake up from his 200years
> cryo-preservation (because unfortunately for him 200 years earlier they did
> not know how to preserve a body well enough to resurrect it) he would find
> that advance in computer technology made it trivial for anyone to steal his
> coins using the long-obsolete secp256k1 ec curve (which was done long
> before, as soon as it became profitable to crack down the huge stash of
> coins stale in the early blocks)
>
> I just don't get that argument that you can't be "your own bank". The only
> requirement coming from this would be to move your coins about once every
> 10 years or so, which you should be able to do if you have your private
> keys (you should!). You say it may be something to consider when computer
> breakthroughs makes old outputs vulnerable, but I say it's not "if" but
> "when" it happens, and by telling firsthand people that their coins
> requires moving every once in a long while you ensure they won't do stupid
> things or come back 50 years from now and complain their addresses have
> been scavenged.
>
> --
> Thomas
>
>
> On 22/08/17 10:29 AM, Erik Aronesty via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>
> I agree, it is only a good idea in the event of a quantum computing threat
> to the security of Bitcoin.
>
> On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 9:45 AM, Chris Riley via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> This seems to be drifting off into alt-coin discussion. The idea that we
>> can change the rules and steal coins at a later date because they are
>> "stale" or someone is "hoarding" is antithetical to one of the points of
>> bitcoin in that you can no longer control your own money ("be your own
>> bank") because someone can at a later date take your coins for some reason
>> that is outside your control and solely based on some rationalization by a
>> third party. Once the rule is established that there are valid reasons why
>> someone should not have control of their own bitcoins, what other reasons
>> will then be determined to be valid?
>>
>> I can imagine Hal Finney being revived (he was cryo-preserved at Alcor if
>> you aren't aware) after 100 or 200 years expecting his coins to be there
>> only to find out that his coins were deemed "stale" so were "reclaimed" (in
>> the current doublespeak - e.g. stolen or confiscated). Or perhaps he
>> locked some for his children and they are found to be "stale" before they
>> are available. He said in March 2013, "I think they're safe enough" stored
>> in a paper wallet. Perhaps any remaining coins are no longer "safe enough."
>>
>> Again, this seems (a) more about an alt-coin/bitcoin fork or (b) better
>> in bitcoin-discuss at best vs bitcoin-dev. I've seen it discussed many
>> times since 2010 and still do not agree with the rational that embracing
>> allowing someone to steal someone else's coins for any reason is a useful
>> change to bitcoin.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 4:19 AM, Matthew Beton via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Okay so I quite like this idea. If we start removing at height 630000 or
>>> 840000 (gives us 4-8 years to develop this solution), it stays nice and
>>> neat with the halving interval. We can look at this like so:
>>>
>>> B - the current block number
>>> P - how many blocks behind current the coin burning block is. (630000,
>>> 840000, or otherwise.)
>>>
>>> Every time we mine a new block, we go to block (B-P), and check for
>>> stale coins. These coins get burnt up and pooled into block B's miner fees.
>>> This keeps the mining rewards up in the long term, people are less likely
>>> to stop mining due to too low fees. It also encourages people to keep
>>> moving their money around the enconomy instead of just hording and leaving
>>> it.
>>>
>>
>
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📝 Original message:Very true, if Moore's law is still functional in 200 years, computers will
be 2^100 times faster (possibly more if quantum computing becomes
commonplace), and so old wallets may be easily cracked.
We will need a way to force people to use newer, higher security wallets,
and turning coins to mining rewards is better solution than them just being
hacked.
On Tue, 22 Aug 2017, 7:24 pm Thomas Guyot-Sionnest <dermoth at aei.ca> wrote:
> In any case when Hal Finney do not wake up from his 200years
> cryo-preservation (because unfortunately for him 200 years earlier they did
> not know how to preserve a body well enough to resurrect it) he would find
> that advance in computer technology made it trivial for anyone to steal his
> coins using the long-obsolete secp256k1 ec curve (which was done long
> before, as soon as it became profitable to crack down the huge stash of
> coins stale in the early blocks)
>
> I just don't get that argument that you can't be "your own bank". The only
> requirement coming from this would be to move your coins about once every
> 10 years or so, which you should be able to do if you have your private
> keys (you should!). You say it may be something to consider when computer
> breakthroughs makes old outputs vulnerable, but I say it's not "if" but
> "when" it happens, and by telling firsthand people that their coins
> requires moving every once in a long while you ensure they won't do stupid
> things or come back 50 years from now and complain their addresses have
> been scavenged.
>
> --
> Thomas
>
>
> On 22/08/17 10:29 AM, Erik Aronesty via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>
> I agree, it is only a good idea in the event of a quantum computing threat
> to the security of Bitcoin.
>
> On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 9:45 AM, Chris Riley via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> This seems to be drifting off into alt-coin discussion. The idea that we
>> can change the rules and steal coins at a later date because they are
>> "stale" or someone is "hoarding" is antithetical to one of the points of
>> bitcoin in that you can no longer control your own money ("be your own
>> bank") because someone can at a later date take your coins for some reason
>> that is outside your control and solely based on some rationalization by a
>> third party. Once the rule is established that there are valid reasons why
>> someone should not have control of their own bitcoins, what other reasons
>> will then be determined to be valid?
>>
>> I can imagine Hal Finney being revived (he was cryo-preserved at Alcor if
>> you aren't aware) after 100 or 200 years expecting his coins to be there
>> only to find out that his coins were deemed "stale" so were "reclaimed" (in
>> the current doublespeak - e.g. stolen or confiscated). Or perhaps he
>> locked some for his children and they are found to be "stale" before they
>> are available. He said in March 2013, "I think they're safe enough" stored
>> in a paper wallet. Perhaps any remaining coins are no longer "safe enough."
>>
>> Again, this seems (a) more about an alt-coin/bitcoin fork or (b) better
>> in bitcoin-discuss at best vs bitcoin-dev. I've seen it discussed many
>> times since 2010 and still do not agree with the rational that embracing
>> allowing someone to steal someone else's coins for any reason is a useful
>> change to bitcoin.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 4:19 AM, Matthew Beton via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Okay so I quite like this idea. If we start removing at height 630000 or
>>> 840000 (gives us 4-8 years to develop this solution), it stays nice and
>>> neat with the halving interval. We can look at this like so:
>>>
>>> B - the current block number
>>> P - how many blocks behind current the coin burning block is. (630000,
>>> 840000, or otherwise.)
>>>
>>> Every time we mine a new block, we go to block (B-P), and check for
>>> stale coins. These coins get burnt up and pooled into block B's miner fees.
>>> This keeps the mining rewards up in the long term, people are less likely
>>> to stop mining due to too low fees. It also encourages people to keep
>>> moving their money around the enconomy instead of just hording and leaving
>>> it.
>>>
>>
>
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