Zac Greenwood [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2021-07-27 📝 Original message:Hi Billy, On the topic of ...
📅 Original date posted:2021-07-27
📝 Original message:Hi Billy,
On the topic of wallet vaults, are there any plans to implement a way to
limit the maximum amount to be sent from an address?
An example of such limit might be: the maximum amount allowed to send is
max(s, p) where s is a number of satoshi and p a percentage of the total
available (sendable) amount.
A minimum value may be imposed on the percentage to ensure that the address
can be emptied within a reasonable number of transactions. The second
parameter s allows a minimum permitted amount. (This is necessary because
with only the percentage parameter the minimum permitted amount converges
to zero, making it impossible to empty the address).
There may be other ways too. In my view, such kind of restriction would be
extremely effective in thwarting the most damaging type of theft being the
one where all funds are swept in a single transaction.
Zac
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 at 03:26, Billy Tetrud via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> Hey James,
>
> In the examples you mentioned, what I was exploring was a mechanism of
> attack by which the attacker could steal user A's key and use that key to
> send a transaction with the maximum possible fee. User B would still
> receive some funds (probably), but if the fee could be large, the attacker
> would either do a lot of damage to user B (griefing) or could make an
> agreement with a miner to give back some of the large fee (theft).
>
> But as for use cases, the proposal mentions a number of use cases
> <https://github.com/fresheneesz/bip-efficient-bitcoin-vaults/blob/main/cd/bip-constraindestination.md#motivation>; and
> most overlap with the use cases of op_ctv <https://utxos.org/uses/>; (Jeremy
> Rubin's website for op_ctv has a lot of good details, most of which are
> also relevant to op_cd). The use case I'm most interested in is wallet
> vaults. This opcode can be used to create a wallet vault where the user
> only needs to use, for example, 1 key to spend funds, but the attacker must
> steal 2 or more keys to spend funds. The benefits of a 2 key wallet vault
> like this vs a normal 2-of-2 multisig wallet are that not only does an
> attacker have to steal both keys (same level of security), but also the
> user can lose one key and still recover their funds (better redundancy) and
> also that generally the user doesn't need to access their second key - so
> that can remain in a much more secure location (which would also probably
> make that key harder to steal). The only time the second key only comes
> into play if one key is stolen and the attacker attempts to send a
> transaction. At that point, the user would go find and use his second key
> (along with the first) to send a revoke transaction to prevent the attacker
> from stealing their funds. This is somewhat akin to a lightning watchtower
> scenario, where your wallet would watch the chain and alert you about an
> unexpected transaction, at which point you'd manually do a revoke (vs a
> watchtower's automated response). You might be interested in taking a look
> at this wallet vault design
> <https://github.com/fresheneesz/bip-efficient-bitcoin-vaults/blob/main/cd/op_cdWalletVault1.md>;
> that uses OP_CD or even my full vision
> <https://github.com/fresheneesz/bip-efficient-bitcoin-vaults>; of the
> wallet vault I want to be able to create.
>
> With a covenant opcode like this, its possible to create very usable and
> accessible but highly secure wallets that can allow normal people to hold
> self custody of their keys without fear of loss or theft and without the
> hassle of a lot of safe deposit boxes (or other secure seed storage
> locations).
>
> Cheers,
> BT
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 2:08 PM James MacWhyte <macwhyte at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Billy!
>>
>> See above, but to break down that situation a bit further, these are the
>>> two situations I can think of:
>>>
>>> 1. The opcode limits user/group A to send the output to user/group B
>>> 2. The opcode limits user A to send from one address they own to
>>> another address they own.
>>>
>>> I'm trying to think of a good use case for this type of opcode. In these
>> examples, an attacker who compromises the key for user A can't steal the
>> money because it can only be sent to user B. So if the attacker wants to
>> steal the funds, they would need to compromise the keys of both user A and
>> user B.
>>
>> But how is that any better than a 2-of-2 multisig? Isn't the end result
>> exactly the same?
>>
>> James
>>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
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📝 Original message:Hi Billy,
On the topic of wallet vaults, are there any plans to implement a way to
limit the maximum amount to be sent from an address?
An example of such limit might be: the maximum amount allowed to send is
max(s, p) where s is a number of satoshi and p a percentage of the total
available (sendable) amount.
A minimum value may be imposed on the percentage to ensure that the address
can be emptied within a reasonable number of transactions. The second
parameter s allows a minimum permitted amount. (This is necessary because
with only the percentage parameter the minimum permitted amount converges
to zero, making it impossible to empty the address).
There may be other ways too. In my view, such kind of restriction would be
extremely effective in thwarting the most damaging type of theft being the
one where all funds are swept in a single transaction.
Zac
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 at 03:26, Billy Tetrud via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> Hey James,
>
> In the examples you mentioned, what I was exploring was a mechanism of
> attack by which the attacker could steal user A's key and use that key to
> send a transaction with the maximum possible fee. User B would still
> receive some funds (probably), but if the fee could be large, the attacker
> would either do a lot of damage to user B (griefing) or could make an
> agreement with a miner to give back some of the large fee (theft).
>
> But as for use cases, the proposal mentions a number of use cases
> <https://github.com/fresheneesz/bip-efficient-bitcoin-vaults/blob/main/cd/bip-constraindestination.md#motivation>; and
> most overlap with the use cases of op_ctv <https://utxos.org/uses/>; (Jeremy
> Rubin's website for op_ctv has a lot of good details, most of which are
> also relevant to op_cd). The use case I'm most interested in is wallet
> vaults. This opcode can be used to create a wallet vault where the user
> only needs to use, for example, 1 key to spend funds, but the attacker must
> steal 2 or more keys to spend funds. The benefits of a 2 key wallet vault
> like this vs a normal 2-of-2 multisig wallet are that not only does an
> attacker have to steal both keys (same level of security), but also the
> user can lose one key and still recover their funds (better redundancy) and
> also that generally the user doesn't need to access their second key - so
> that can remain in a much more secure location (which would also probably
> make that key harder to steal). The only time the second key only comes
> into play if one key is stolen and the attacker attempts to send a
> transaction. At that point, the user would go find and use his second key
> (along with the first) to send a revoke transaction to prevent the attacker
> from stealing their funds. This is somewhat akin to a lightning watchtower
> scenario, where your wallet would watch the chain and alert you about an
> unexpected transaction, at which point you'd manually do a revoke (vs a
> watchtower's automated response). You might be interested in taking a look
> at this wallet vault design
> <https://github.com/fresheneesz/bip-efficient-bitcoin-vaults/blob/main/cd/op_cdWalletVault1.md>;
> that uses OP_CD or even my full vision
> <https://github.com/fresheneesz/bip-efficient-bitcoin-vaults>; of the
> wallet vault I want to be able to create.
>
> With a covenant opcode like this, its possible to create very usable and
> accessible but highly secure wallets that can allow normal people to hold
> self custody of their keys without fear of loss or theft and without the
> hassle of a lot of safe deposit boxes (or other secure seed storage
> locations).
>
> Cheers,
> BT
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 2:08 PM James MacWhyte <macwhyte at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Billy!
>>
>> See above, but to break down that situation a bit further, these are the
>>> two situations I can think of:
>>>
>>> 1. The opcode limits user/group A to send the output to user/group B
>>> 2. The opcode limits user A to send from one address they own to
>>> another address they own.
>>>
>>> I'm trying to think of a good use case for this type of opcode. In these
>> examples, an attacker who compromises the key for user A can't steal the
>> money because it can only be sent to user B. So if the attacker wants to
>> steal the funds, they would need to compromise the keys of both user A and
>> user B.
>>
>> But how is that any better than a 2-of-2 multisig? Isn't the end result
>> exactly the same?
>>
>> James
>>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
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