Zac Greenwood [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: đź“… Original date posted:2021-06-30 đź“ť Original message:> Majority hash power does ...
đź“… Original date posted:2021-06-30
đź“ť Original message:> Majority hash power does have the ability to determine what gets
confirmed.
Miners don’t have the ability to decide whether a block is valid.
Hash power is only recognized as such if it is used for creating a valid
block, i.e., a block that strictly follows all the rules as set by the node
software that transacting users choose to run.
If suddenly 70% of all hash power decided to start mining blocks that are
invalid according to the rules set in the users’ software, then these
invalid blocks will be disregarded. From a user perspective, 70% of all
hash power will seem to have disappeared.
In short, users define what is Bitcoin, not miners. This is fundamental to
being decentralized.
On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 23:17, Eric Voskuil via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> On Jun 29, 2021, at 12:28, Jorge TimĂłn <jtimon at jtimon.cc> wrote:
>
> 
> "Confirmation" isn't needed for softforks.
>
>
> All transactions require confirmation. Splitting does not change this.
>
> Softforks are not compatible without miner enforcement. So soft forking
> without it has essentially the same effect as hard forking, the chain
> splits.
>
> Miners controlling confirmation doesn't mean miners control the rules,
> they never did.
>
>
> Please define “control” because these statements hinge on that word.
> Nobody “controls” the rules of others, nor did anyone claim that to be the
> case. Majority hash power does have the ability to determine what gets
> confirmed. That is the central design principle of proof of work. It takes
> that decision out of the hands of politicians and places it at the feet of
> the market.
>
> Read section 11 of the bitcoin paper "even with a majority of hashrate one
> cannot arbitrarily change rules or forge signatures.
>
>
> Never claimed that was the case. One can run any rules that one desires.
>
> You may say users chosing the rules is "politicial". Isn't miners deciding
> them for users more political?
>
>
> No, it’s economic. The largest investment in mining (including highest
> fees paid to incentivize it) determines censorship resistance.
>
> Whatever you call it, it is still how free software works: users decide
> what to run.
>
>
> A *person* can run whatever software they want. Money requires that others
> agree (same rules), and to be money bitcoin requires confirmation.
>
> It is extremely disappointing to see how few developers seem to ubderstand
> this, or even care about users deciding or miners not deciding the rules.
>
>
> It’s poorly understood because there are so many who should know better
> making very misleading statements.
>
> How can we expect users to understand bitcoin when most developers don't
> seem to understand it?
>
>
> Clearly we cannot.
>
> It is really sad.
>
> On Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 19:17 Eric Voskuil <eric at voskuil.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> > On Jun 29, 2021, at 10:55, Luke Dashjr <luke at dashjr.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > The only alternative to a split in the problematic scenarios are 1)
>> concede
>> > centralised miner control over the network,
>>
>> Miners control confirmation, entirely.
>>
>> This is the nature of bitcoin. And merchants control validation,
>> entirely. Anyone can be a miner or a merchant. Neither is inherently
>> “better” than the other. The largest merchants are likely a handful of
>> exchanges, likely at least as centralized as miners are pooled.
>>
>> Splitting does not change this.
>>
>> > and 2) have inconsistent
>> > enforcement of rules by users who don't agree on what the correct rules
>> are,
>>
>> There are no “correct” rules. Whatever rules one enforces determine what
>> network he chooses to participate in.
>>
>> > again leading to centralised miner control over the network.
>>
>> Leading to? Miners control confirmation, always. Whether that is
>> centralized, just as with merchanting, is up to individuals.
>>
>> > In other words, in this context, accepting a split between disagreeing
>> users
>> > is the ONLY way Bitcoin can possibly continue as a decentralised
>> currency.
>>
>> No, it is not. You are proposing splitting as the method of censorship
>> resistance inherent to Bitcoin. Coordinating this split requires
>> coordinated action. The whole point of bitcoin is coordinate that action
>> based on mining (proof of work). Replacing that with a political process is
>> just a reversion to political money.
>>
>> > Making that split as clean and well-defined as possible not only
>> ensures the
>> > best opportunity for both sides of the disagreement,
>>
>> Trivially accomplished, just change a rule. This isn’t about that. It’s
>> about how one gets others to go along with the new coin, or stay with the
>> old. An entirely political process, which is clearly evident from the
>> campaigns around such attempts.
>>
>> > but also minimises the
>> > risk that the split occurs at all (since the "losing" side needs to
>> concede,
>> > rather than passively continue the disagreement ongoing after the
>> attempted
>> > protocol change).
>>
>> Nobody “needs to” concede once a split has occurred, which is evident in
>> existing splits.
>>
>> e
>>
>> > Luke
>> >
>> >
>> >> On Tuesday 29 June 2021 08:44:56 Eric Voskuil wrote:
>> >> At least we are now acknowledging that splitting is what it’s about.
>> That’s
>> >> progress.
>> >>
>> >> e
>> >>
>> >>>> On Jun 29, 2021, at 01:32, Jorge TimĂłn <jtimon at jtimon.cc> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> 
>> >>> I think the option of "permanent failure because miners veto" should
>> >>> actually be abandoned. No, I don't think we should avoid splits when
>> >>> possible, I don't think we should avoid splits at all costs.
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Sun, Jun 27, 2021, 19:12 Billy Tetrud <billy.tetrud at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>> @Luke
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> They can still slow it down.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Absolutely. However I think that the option of permanent failure is
>> >>>> important. It certainly would be ideal to ensure that enough bitcoin
>> >>>> users support the upgrade *before* releasing it, however
>> realistically
>> >>>> this can never be more than an estimate, and estimates can sometimes
>> be
>> >>>> wildly wrong. It would be unfortunate if miners had a substantially
>> >>>> different estimate of user support than the people putting in the
>> work
>> >>>> to release bitcoin upgrades. Even if upgrades are never released
>> before
>> >>>> it becomes clear that a large supermajority of users want the
>> upgrade,
>> >>>> if miners don't agree with the estimate a harmful chain split could
>> >>>> occur. And I agree with Eric that the goal here is to prevent a chain
>> >>>> split during an upgrade when possible. This includes permanent
>> failure
>> >>>> of an upgrade when there is unexpectedly large miner opposition.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> This of course does not prevent a UASF-style deployment to be done
>> after
>> >>>> an initial failure to deploy occurs. My proposal is essentially a
>> >>>> mechanism to improve upon the speedy-trial idea, allowing for even
>> >>>> speedier releases (than speedy trial) without adding additional risk
>> of
>> >>>> undesired chain splits.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> [BIP8] already has the trinary state you seem to be describing
>> >>>>
>> >>>> It sounds like you're saying the trinary state of BIP8 is A. Follow
>> the
>> >>>> longest chain, B. Follow the upgrade chain, or C. follow the
>> >>>> non-upgraded chain. I agree. However the trinary state in my
>> proposal is
>> >>>> materially different - it is the signaling itself that is trinary,
>> not
>> >>>> just which chain is being followed. This allows others to know and
>> make
>> >>>> programmatic decisions (in software) based on that signaling. I'm
>> sure
>> >>>> you can agree that does not exist in BIP8.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> No additional bit is needed, as softforks are coordinated between
>> >>>>> users, NOT miners
>> >>>>
>> >>>> And yet there is miner involvement, as you rightly pointed out.
>> Miners
>> >>>> are needed to set the nVersion in the header. So when you say "no
>> >>>> additional bit is needed", could you please be clearer as to what you
>> >>>> mean? Do you mean that signaling of opposition in a block can be done
>> >>>> without any "additional bit"? Or are you just saying that it is
>> >>>> redundant to consider what miners might be opposing an upgrade?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> @Jorge
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> If different users want different incompatible things... there's no
>> >>>>> way to avoid the split
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I agree. This happened with bcash, and that's fine. It was painful,
>> but
>> >>>> there were a significant amount of users that disagreed, and they
>> have
>> >>>> the chain they want now.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But we generally all want to avoid a chain split when possible.
>> Because
>> >>>> chain splits have a cost, and that cost can be high, its likely that
>> >>>> many users would rather choose the chain with the most support rather
>> >>>> than choosing the chain with their preferred rules.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> However, the question here is: how do we estimate what fraction of
>> users
>> >>>> wants which rules? We don't have a divining rod to determine with
>> >>>> certainty what users want. We can only make polls of various levels
>> of
>> >>>> inaccuracy. The methods bitcoin has been using is community
>> discussion
>> >>>> and social consensus estimation as well as miner signaling during the
>> >>>> actual deployment period. Neither of these are perfect, but they are
>> >>>> both reasonable enough mechanisms. However, because both of these
>> >>>> mechanisms are very rough estimates of user sentiment, we need to
>> >>>> consider the possibility that sometimes the estimate may be
>> >>>> substantially inaccurate when we design deployment procedures. This
>> >>>> inaccuracy is why we need multiple barriers in place for an upgrade,
>> and
>> >>>> why we need to have higher thresholds of success (require larger
>> >>>> supermajorities in both consensus and miner signaling).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Developers obviously care about bitcoin and have an incentive
>> (personal
>> >>>> and probably financial) to do it right. And miners have both an
>> >>>> incentive to keep the system healthy, as well as an incentive to
>> mine on
>> >>>> the chain that the economic majority of users is using. But measuring
>> >>>> the consensus of the bitcoin community can be extraordinarily
>> difficult
>> >>>> to do with consistent accuracy, and so I think miner signaling as it
>> has
>> >>>> been used as a second barrier to entry for an upgrade is quite
>> >>>> appropriate.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 2:22 AM Eric Voskuil <eric at voskuil.org>
>> wrote:
>> >>>>> I have not objected to anyone splitting. As I said, a split is
>> always
>> >>>>> possible, and of course has been done on a large scale. It is only
>> the
>> >>>>> misleading statements about inherent soft fork “compatibility” and
>> the
>> >>>>> implication that activation without hash power enforcement does not
>> >>>>> create a split that I object to. People who know better should be
>> >>>>> honest about it.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Far too many people have been led to believe there is some sort of
>> >>>>> activation choice with “ensured” equal outcomes (maybe “slowed
>> down”).
>> >>>>> There is only a choice between creating a split and hash power
>> >>>>> enforcement. Soft forks are rule changes, and thereby incompatible -
>> >>>>> unless enforced by majority hash power.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The statements below are grossly misleading and need to be called
>> out
>> >>>>> as such so that people can actually make this decision you speak of.
>> >>>>> This idea that “users” decide the rules is not the question. The
>> >>>>> question is only how to avoid a split. If one does not care he can
>> >>>>> split at any time, no discussion required.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> e
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Jun 27, 2021, at 01:47, Jorge TimĂłn <jtimon at jtimon.cc> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> If different users want different incompatible things (enough on
>> >>>>>> each side), there's no way to avoid the split. We shouldn't try to
>> >>>>>> avoid such a split.
>> >>>>>> Users decide the rules, not miners nor developers.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 12:05 AM Eric Voskuil via bitcoin-dev
>> >>>>>>> <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Ultimately there is only one answer to this question. Get majority
>> >>>>>>> hash power support.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Soft fork enforcement is the same act as any other censorship
>> >>>>>>> enforcement, the difference is only a question of what people
>> want.
>> >>>>>>> Given that there is no collective “we”, those wants differ.
>> Bitcoin
>> >>>>>>> resolves this question of conflicting wants, but it is not a
>> >>>>>>> democracy, it’s a market. One votes by trading.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> If one wants to enforce a soft fork (or otherwise censor) this is
>> >>>>>>> accomplished by mining (or paying others to do so). Anyone can
>> mine,
>> >>>>>>> so everyone gets a say. Mining is trading capital now for more
>> >>>>>>> later. If enough people want to do that, they can enforce a soft
>> >>>>>>> fork. It’s time Bitcoiners stop thinking of miners as other
>> people.
>> >>>>>>> Anyone can mine, and that’s your vote.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Otherwise, as mentioned below, anyone can start a new coin. But
>> it’s
>> >>>>>>> dishonest to imply that one can do this and all others will surely
>> >>>>>>> follow. This cannot be known, it’s merely a gamble. And it’s one
>> >>>>>>> that has been shown to not always pay off.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> e
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> On Jun 26, 2021, at 14:43, Eric Voskuil <eric at voskuil.org>
>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> For some definitions of “block”.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Without majority hash power support, activation simply means you
>> >>>>>>>> are off on a chain split. Anyone can of course split off from a
>> >>>>>>>> chain by changing a rule (soft or otherwise) at any time, so this
>> >>>>>>>> is a bit of an empty claim.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Nobody can stop a person from splitting. The relevant question is
>> >>>>>>>> how to *prevent* a split. And activation without majority hash
>> >>>>>>>> power certainly does not “ensure” this.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> e
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> On Jun 26, 2021, at 14:13, Luke Dashjr via bitcoin-dev
>> >>>>>>>>> <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> BIP8 LOT=True just ensures miners cannot block an upgrade
>> >>>>>>>>> entirely. They can still slow it down.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> It also already has the trinary state you seem to be describing
>> >>>>>>>>> (although perhaps this could be better documented in the BIP):
>> >>>>>>>>> users who oppose the softfork can and should treat the
>> successful
>> >>>>>>>>> signal (whether MASF or UASF) as invalid, thereby ensuring they
>> do
>> >>>>>>>>> not follow a chain with the rules in force.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> No additional bit is needed, as softforks are coordinated
>> between
>> >>>>>>>>> users, NOT miners (who have no particular say in them, aside
>> from
>> >>>>>>>>> their role as also being users). The miner involvement is only
>> out
>> >>>>>>>>> of necessity (to set the bit in the header, which users
>> coordinate
>> >>>>>>>>> with) and potentially to accelerate activation by protecting
>> >>>>>>>>> upgrade-lagging users.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Luke
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday 26 June 2021 20:21:52 Billy Tetrud via bitcoin-dev
>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Given the recent controversy over upgrade mechanisms for the
>> >>>>>>>>>> non-controversial taproot upgrade, I have been thinking about
>> >>>>>>>>>> ways to solve the problems that both sides brought up. In
>> short,
>> >>>>>>>>>> BIP8 LOT=true proponents make the point that lazy miners
>> failing
>> >>>>>>>>>> to upgrade in a timely manner slow down releases of bitcoin
>> >>>>>>>>>> upgrades, and BIP9 / BIP8 LOT=false proponents make the point
>> >>>>>>>>>> that LOT=true can lead to undesirable forks that might cause a
>> >>>>>>>>>> lot of chaos. I believe both points are essentially correct and
>> >>>>>>>>>> have created a proposal
>> >>>>>>>>>> <
>> https://github.com/fresheneesz/bip-trinary-version-signaling/blo
>> >>>>>>>>>> b/master/b ip-trinary-version-bits.md> for soft fork upgrades
>> that
>> >>>>>>>>>> solve both problems.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> The proposal uses trinary version signaling rather than binary
>> >>>>>>>>>> signaling. For any particular prospective soft fork upgrade,
>> this
>> >>>>>>>>>> allows for three signaling states:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> * Actively support the change.
>> >>>>>>>>>> * Actively oppose the change.
>> >>>>>>>>>> * Not signaling (neither support or oppose). This is the
>> default
>> >>>>>>>>>> state.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Using this additional information, we can release
>> non-contentious
>> >>>>>>>>>> upgrades much quicker (with a much lower percent of miners
>> >>>>>>>>>> signaling support). For contentious upgrades, miners who oppose
>> >>>>>>>>>> the change are incentivized to update their software to a
>> version
>> >>>>>>>>>> that can actively signal opposition to the change. The more
>> >>>>>>>>>> opposition there is, the higher the threshold necessary to lock
>> >>>>>>>>>> in the upgrade. With the parameters I currently recommended in
>> >>>>>>>>>> the proposal, this chart shows how much support signaling would
>> >>>>>>>>>> be necessary given a particular amount of active opposition
>> >>>>>>>>>> signaling:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> [image: thresholdChart.png]
>> >>>>>>>>>> If literally no one signals opposition, a 60% threshold should
>> be
>> >>>>>>>>>> relatively safe because it is a supermajority amount that is
>> >>>>>>>>>> unlikely to change significantly very quickly (ie if 60% of
>> >>>>>>>>>> miners support the change today, its unlikely that less than a
>> >>>>>>>>>> majority of miners would support the change a year or two from
>> >>>>>>>>>> now), and if no one is signaling opposition, chances are that
>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>> vast majority of the other 40% would also eventually signal
>> >>>>>>>>>> support.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> This both gives an incentive for "lazy" miners to upgrade if
>> they
>> >>>>>>>>>> actually oppose the change while at the same time allowing
>> these
>> >>>>>>>>>> lazy miners to remain lazy without slowing down the soft fork
>> >>>>>>>>>> activation much.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I think now is the right time to discuss new soft fork upgrade
>> >>>>>>>>>> mechanisms, when there are no pressing soft fork upgrades ready
>> >>>>>>>>>> to deploy. Waiting until we need to deploy a soft fork to
>> discuss
>> >>>>>>>>>> this will only delay things and cause contention again like it
>> >>>>>>>>>> did with taproot.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm very curious to know what people think of this mechanism. I
>> >>>>>>>>>> would appreciate any comments here, or written as github issues
>> >>>>>>>>>> on the proposal repo itself.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>> >>>>>>>>>> BT
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> >>>>>>>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> >>>>>>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> >>>>>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> >>>>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>> >
>>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
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đź“ť Original message:> Majority hash power does have the ability to determine what gets
confirmed.
Miners don’t have the ability to decide whether a block is valid.
Hash power is only recognized as such if it is used for creating a valid
block, i.e., a block that strictly follows all the rules as set by the node
software that transacting users choose to run.
If suddenly 70% of all hash power decided to start mining blocks that are
invalid according to the rules set in the users’ software, then these
invalid blocks will be disregarded. From a user perspective, 70% of all
hash power will seem to have disappeared.
In short, users define what is Bitcoin, not miners. This is fundamental to
being decentralized.
On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 23:17, Eric Voskuil via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> On Jun 29, 2021, at 12:28, Jorge TimĂłn <jtimon at jtimon.cc> wrote:
>
> 
> "Confirmation" isn't needed for softforks.
>
>
> All transactions require confirmation. Splitting does not change this.
>
> Softforks are not compatible without miner enforcement. So soft forking
> without it has essentially the same effect as hard forking, the chain
> splits.
>
> Miners controlling confirmation doesn't mean miners control the rules,
> they never did.
>
>
> Please define “control” because these statements hinge on that word.
> Nobody “controls” the rules of others, nor did anyone claim that to be the
> case. Majority hash power does have the ability to determine what gets
> confirmed. That is the central design principle of proof of work. It takes
> that decision out of the hands of politicians and places it at the feet of
> the market.
>
> Read section 11 of the bitcoin paper "even with a majority of hashrate one
> cannot arbitrarily change rules or forge signatures.
>
>
> Never claimed that was the case. One can run any rules that one desires.
>
> You may say users chosing the rules is "politicial". Isn't miners deciding
> them for users more political?
>
>
> No, it’s economic. The largest investment in mining (including highest
> fees paid to incentivize it) determines censorship resistance.
>
> Whatever you call it, it is still how free software works: users decide
> what to run.
>
>
> A *person* can run whatever software they want. Money requires that others
> agree (same rules), and to be money bitcoin requires confirmation.
>
> It is extremely disappointing to see how few developers seem to ubderstand
> this, or even care about users deciding or miners not deciding the rules.
>
>
> It’s poorly understood because there are so many who should know better
> making very misleading statements.
>
> How can we expect users to understand bitcoin when most developers don't
> seem to understand it?
>
>
> Clearly we cannot.
>
> It is really sad.
>
> On Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 19:17 Eric Voskuil <eric at voskuil.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> > On Jun 29, 2021, at 10:55, Luke Dashjr <luke at dashjr.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > The only alternative to a split in the problematic scenarios are 1)
>> concede
>> > centralised miner control over the network,
>>
>> Miners control confirmation, entirely.
>>
>> This is the nature of bitcoin. And merchants control validation,
>> entirely. Anyone can be a miner or a merchant. Neither is inherently
>> “better” than the other. The largest merchants are likely a handful of
>> exchanges, likely at least as centralized as miners are pooled.
>>
>> Splitting does not change this.
>>
>> > and 2) have inconsistent
>> > enforcement of rules by users who don't agree on what the correct rules
>> are,
>>
>> There are no “correct” rules. Whatever rules one enforces determine what
>> network he chooses to participate in.
>>
>> > again leading to centralised miner control over the network.
>>
>> Leading to? Miners control confirmation, always. Whether that is
>> centralized, just as with merchanting, is up to individuals.
>>
>> > In other words, in this context, accepting a split between disagreeing
>> users
>> > is the ONLY way Bitcoin can possibly continue as a decentralised
>> currency.
>>
>> No, it is not. You are proposing splitting as the method of censorship
>> resistance inherent to Bitcoin. Coordinating this split requires
>> coordinated action. The whole point of bitcoin is coordinate that action
>> based on mining (proof of work). Replacing that with a political process is
>> just a reversion to political money.
>>
>> > Making that split as clean and well-defined as possible not only
>> ensures the
>> > best opportunity for both sides of the disagreement,
>>
>> Trivially accomplished, just change a rule. This isn’t about that. It’s
>> about how one gets others to go along with the new coin, or stay with the
>> old. An entirely political process, which is clearly evident from the
>> campaigns around such attempts.
>>
>> > but also minimises the
>> > risk that the split occurs at all (since the "losing" side needs to
>> concede,
>> > rather than passively continue the disagreement ongoing after the
>> attempted
>> > protocol change).
>>
>> Nobody “needs to” concede once a split has occurred, which is evident in
>> existing splits.
>>
>> e
>>
>> > Luke
>> >
>> >
>> >> On Tuesday 29 June 2021 08:44:56 Eric Voskuil wrote:
>> >> At least we are now acknowledging that splitting is what it’s about.
>> That’s
>> >> progress.
>> >>
>> >> e
>> >>
>> >>>> On Jun 29, 2021, at 01:32, Jorge TimĂłn <jtimon at jtimon.cc> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> 
>> >>> I think the option of "permanent failure because miners veto" should
>> >>> actually be abandoned. No, I don't think we should avoid splits when
>> >>> possible, I don't think we should avoid splits at all costs.
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Sun, Jun 27, 2021, 19:12 Billy Tetrud <billy.tetrud at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>> @Luke
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> They can still slow it down.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Absolutely. However I think that the option of permanent failure is
>> >>>> important. It certainly would be ideal to ensure that enough bitcoin
>> >>>> users support the upgrade *before* releasing it, however
>> realistically
>> >>>> this can never be more than an estimate, and estimates can sometimes
>> be
>> >>>> wildly wrong. It would be unfortunate if miners had a substantially
>> >>>> different estimate of user support than the people putting in the
>> work
>> >>>> to release bitcoin upgrades. Even if upgrades are never released
>> before
>> >>>> it becomes clear that a large supermajority of users want the
>> upgrade,
>> >>>> if miners don't agree with the estimate a harmful chain split could
>> >>>> occur. And I agree with Eric that the goal here is to prevent a chain
>> >>>> split during an upgrade when possible. This includes permanent
>> failure
>> >>>> of an upgrade when there is unexpectedly large miner opposition.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> This of course does not prevent a UASF-style deployment to be done
>> after
>> >>>> an initial failure to deploy occurs. My proposal is essentially a
>> >>>> mechanism to improve upon the speedy-trial idea, allowing for even
>> >>>> speedier releases (than speedy trial) without adding additional risk
>> of
>> >>>> undesired chain splits.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> [BIP8] already has the trinary state you seem to be describing
>> >>>>
>> >>>> It sounds like you're saying the trinary state of BIP8 is A. Follow
>> the
>> >>>> longest chain, B. Follow the upgrade chain, or C. follow the
>> >>>> non-upgraded chain. I agree. However the trinary state in my
>> proposal is
>> >>>> materially different - it is the signaling itself that is trinary,
>> not
>> >>>> just which chain is being followed. This allows others to know and
>> make
>> >>>> programmatic decisions (in software) based on that signaling. I'm
>> sure
>> >>>> you can agree that does not exist in BIP8.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> No additional bit is needed, as softforks are coordinated between
>> >>>>> users, NOT miners
>> >>>>
>> >>>> And yet there is miner involvement, as you rightly pointed out.
>> Miners
>> >>>> are needed to set the nVersion in the header. So when you say "no
>> >>>> additional bit is needed", could you please be clearer as to what you
>> >>>> mean? Do you mean that signaling of opposition in a block can be done
>> >>>> without any "additional bit"? Or are you just saying that it is
>> >>>> redundant to consider what miners might be opposing an upgrade?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> @Jorge
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> If different users want different incompatible things... there's no
>> >>>>> way to avoid the split
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I agree. This happened with bcash, and that's fine. It was painful,
>> but
>> >>>> there were a significant amount of users that disagreed, and they
>> have
>> >>>> the chain they want now.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But we generally all want to avoid a chain split when possible.
>> Because
>> >>>> chain splits have a cost, and that cost can be high, its likely that
>> >>>> many users would rather choose the chain with the most support rather
>> >>>> than choosing the chain with their preferred rules.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> However, the question here is: how do we estimate what fraction of
>> users
>> >>>> wants which rules? We don't have a divining rod to determine with
>> >>>> certainty what users want. We can only make polls of various levels
>> of
>> >>>> inaccuracy. The methods bitcoin has been using is community
>> discussion
>> >>>> and social consensus estimation as well as miner signaling during the
>> >>>> actual deployment period. Neither of these are perfect, but they are
>> >>>> both reasonable enough mechanisms. However, because both of these
>> >>>> mechanisms are very rough estimates of user sentiment, we need to
>> >>>> consider the possibility that sometimes the estimate may be
>> >>>> substantially inaccurate when we design deployment procedures. This
>> >>>> inaccuracy is why we need multiple barriers in place for an upgrade,
>> and
>> >>>> why we need to have higher thresholds of success (require larger
>> >>>> supermajorities in both consensus and miner signaling).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Developers obviously care about bitcoin and have an incentive
>> (personal
>> >>>> and probably financial) to do it right. And miners have both an
>> >>>> incentive to keep the system healthy, as well as an incentive to
>> mine on
>> >>>> the chain that the economic majority of users is using. But measuring
>> >>>> the consensus of the bitcoin community can be extraordinarily
>> difficult
>> >>>> to do with consistent accuracy, and so I think miner signaling as it
>> has
>> >>>> been used as a second barrier to entry for an upgrade is quite
>> >>>> appropriate.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 2:22 AM Eric Voskuil <eric at voskuil.org>
>> wrote:
>> >>>>> I have not objected to anyone splitting. As I said, a split is
>> always
>> >>>>> possible, and of course has been done on a large scale. It is only
>> the
>> >>>>> misleading statements about inherent soft fork “compatibility” and
>> the
>> >>>>> implication that activation without hash power enforcement does not
>> >>>>> create a split that I object to. People who know better should be
>> >>>>> honest about it.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Far too many people have been led to believe there is some sort of
>> >>>>> activation choice with “ensured” equal outcomes (maybe “slowed
>> down”).
>> >>>>> There is only a choice between creating a split and hash power
>> >>>>> enforcement. Soft forks are rule changes, and thereby incompatible -
>> >>>>> unless enforced by majority hash power.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The statements below are grossly misleading and need to be called
>> out
>> >>>>> as such so that people can actually make this decision you speak of.
>> >>>>> This idea that “users” decide the rules is not the question. The
>> >>>>> question is only how to avoid a split. If one does not care he can
>> >>>>> split at any time, no discussion required.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> e
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Jun 27, 2021, at 01:47, Jorge TimĂłn <jtimon at jtimon.cc> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> If different users want different incompatible things (enough on
>> >>>>>> each side), there's no way to avoid the split. We shouldn't try to
>> >>>>>> avoid such a split.
>> >>>>>> Users decide the rules, not miners nor developers.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 12:05 AM Eric Voskuil via bitcoin-dev
>> >>>>>>> <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Ultimately there is only one answer to this question. Get majority
>> >>>>>>> hash power support.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Soft fork enforcement is the same act as any other censorship
>> >>>>>>> enforcement, the difference is only a question of what people
>> want.
>> >>>>>>> Given that there is no collective “we”, those wants differ.
>> Bitcoin
>> >>>>>>> resolves this question of conflicting wants, but it is not a
>> >>>>>>> democracy, it’s a market. One votes by trading.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> If one wants to enforce a soft fork (or otherwise censor) this is
>> >>>>>>> accomplished by mining (or paying others to do so). Anyone can
>> mine,
>> >>>>>>> so everyone gets a say. Mining is trading capital now for more
>> >>>>>>> later. If enough people want to do that, they can enforce a soft
>> >>>>>>> fork. It’s time Bitcoiners stop thinking of miners as other
>> people.
>> >>>>>>> Anyone can mine, and that’s your vote.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Otherwise, as mentioned below, anyone can start a new coin. But
>> it’s
>> >>>>>>> dishonest to imply that one can do this and all others will surely
>> >>>>>>> follow. This cannot be known, it’s merely a gamble. And it’s one
>> >>>>>>> that has been shown to not always pay off.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> e
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> On Jun 26, 2021, at 14:43, Eric Voskuil <eric at voskuil.org>
>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> For some definitions of “block”.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Without majority hash power support, activation simply means you
>> >>>>>>>> are off on a chain split. Anyone can of course split off from a
>> >>>>>>>> chain by changing a rule (soft or otherwise) at any time, so this
>> >>>>>>>> is a bit of an empty claim.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Nobody can stop a person from splitting. The relevant question is
>> >>>>>>>> how to *prevent* a split. And activation without majority hash
>> >>>>>>>> power certainly does not “ensure” this.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> e
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> On Jun 26, 2021, at 14:13, Luke Dashjr via bitcoin-dev
>> >>>>>>>>> <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> BIP8 LOT=True just ensures miners cannot block an upgrade
>> >>>>>>>>> entirely. They can still slow it down.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> It also already has the trinary state you seem to be describing
>> >>>>>>>>> (although perhaps this could be better documented in the BIP):
>> >>>>>>>>> users who oppose the softfork can and should treat the
>> successful
>> >>>>>>>>> signal (whether MASF or UASF) as invalid, thereby ensuring they
>> do
>> >>>>>>>>> not follow a chain with the rules in force.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> No additional bit is needed, as softforks are coordinated
>> between
>> >>>>>>>>> users, NOT miners (who have no particular say in them, aside
>> from
>> >>>>>>>>> their role as also being users). The miner involvement is only
>> out
>> >>>>>>>>> of necessity (to set the bit in the header, which users
>> coordinate
>> >>>>>>>>> with) and potentially to accelerate activation by protecting
>> >>>>>>>>> upgrade-lagging users.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Luke
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday 26 June 2021 20:21:52 Billy Tetrud via bitcoin-dev
>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Given the recent controversy over upgrade mechanisms for the
>> >>>>>>>>>> non-controversial taproot upgrade, I have been thinking about
>> >>>>>>>>>> ways to solve the problems that both sides brought up. In
>> short,
>> >>>>>>>>>> BIP8 LOT=true proponents make the point that lazy miners
>> failing
>> >>>>>>>>>> to upgrade in a timely manner slow down releases of bitcoin
>> >>>>>>>>>> upgrades, and BIP9 / BIP8 LOT=false proponents make the point
>> >>>>>>>>>> that LOT=true can lead to undesirable forks that might cause a
>> >>>>>>>>>> lot of chaos. I believe both points are essentially correct and
>> >>>>>>>>>> have created a proposal
>> >>>>>>>>>> <
>> https://github.com/fresheneesz/bip-trinary-version-signaling/blo
>> >>>>>>>>>> b/master/b ip-trinary-version-bits.md> for soft fork upgrades
>> that
>> >>>>>>>>>> solve both problems.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> The proposal uses trinary version signaling rather than binary
>> >>>>>>>>>> signaling. For any particular prospective soft fork upgrade,
>> this
>> >>>>>>>>>> allows for three signaling states:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> * Actively support the change.
>> >>>>>>>>>> * Actively oppose the change.
>> >>>>>>>>>> * Not signaling (neither support or oppose). This is the
>> default
>> >>>>>>>>>> state.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Using this additional information, we can release
>> non-contentious
>> >>>>>>>>>> upgrades much quicker (with a much lower percent of miners
>> >>>>>>>>>> signaling support). For contentious upgrades, miners who oppose
>> >>>>>>>>>> the change are incentivized to update their software to a
>> version
>> >>>>>>>>>> that can actively signal opposition to the change. The more
>> >>>>>>>>>> opposition there is, the higher the threshold necessary to lock
>> >>>>>>>>>> in the upgrade. With the parameters I currently recommended in
>> >>>>>>>>>> the proposal, this chart shows how much support signaling would
>> >>>>>>>>>> be necessary given a particular amount of active opposition
>> >>>>>>>>>> signaling:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> [image: thresholdChart.png]
>> >>>>>>>>>> If literally no one signals opposition, a 60% threshold should
>> be
>> >>>>>>>>>> relatively safe because it is a supermajority amount that is
>> >>>>>>>>>> unlikely to change significantly very quickly (ie if 60% of
>> >>>>>>>>>> miners support the change today, its unlikely that less than a
>> >>>>>>>>>> majority of miners would support the change a year or two from
>> >>>>>>>>>> now), and if no one is signaling opposition, chances are that
>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>> vast majority of the other 40% would also eventually signal
>> >>>>>>>>>> support.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> This both gives an incentive for "lazy" miners to upgrade if
>> they
>> >>>>>>>>>> actually oppose the change while at the same time allowing
>> these
>> >>>>>>>>>> lazy miners to remain lazy without slowing down the soft fork
>> >>>>>>>>>> activation much.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I think now is the right time to discuss new soft fork upgrade
>> >>>>>>>>>> mechanisms, when there are no pressing soft fork upgrades ready
>> >>>>>>>>>> to deploy. Waiting until we need to deploy a soft fork to
>> discuss
>> >>>>>>>>>> this will only delay things and cause contention again like it
>> >>>>>>>>>> did with taproot.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm very curious to know what people think of this mechanism. I
>> >>>>>>>>>> would appreciate any comments here, or written as github issues
>> >>>>>>>>>> on the proposal repo itself.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>> >>>>>>>>>> BT
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> >>>>>>>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> >>>>>>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> >>>>>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> >>>>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>> >
>>
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