Pieter Wuille [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2014-12-15 📝 Original message:On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at ...
📅 Original date posted:2014-12-15
📝 Original message:On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 1:47 PM, Peter Todd <pete at petertodd.org> wrote:
> BtcDrak was working on rebasing my CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY¹ patch to master a few
> days ago and found a fairly large design change that makes merging it currently
> impossible. Pull-req #4890², specifically commit c7829ea7, changed the
> EvalScript() function to take an abstract SignatureChecker object, removing the
> txTo and nIn arguments that used to contain the transaction the script was in
> and the txin # respectively. CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY needs txTo to obtain the
> nLockTime field of the transaction, and it needs nIn to obtain the nSequence of
> the txin.
I agree, and I was thinking earlier that some rebasing would be needed
for CLTV when the change was made. I think this is a good thing
though: #4890 introduced a clear separation between the script
evaluation code and what it can access out of its environment (the
transaction being verified). As CLTV changes the amount available out
of the environment, this indeed requires changing the interface.
> We need to fix this if CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY is to be merged.
Done. See https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/cltv2 for a rebased
version of the BIP65 code on top of 0.10 and master. I haven't ported
any tests you may have that are not in the BIP, to avoid doing double
work. Those should apply cleanly. There is a less clean version (IMHO)
with smaller code changes wrt to the BIP code in my 'cltv' branch too.
> Secondly, that this change was made, and the manner in which is was made, is I
> think indicative of a development process that has been taking significant
> risks with regard to refactoring the consensus critical codebase.
I fully agree that we shouldn't be taking unnecessary risks when
changing consensus code. For example, I closed #5091 (which I would
very much have liked as a code improvement) when realizing the risks.
That said, I don't believe we are at a point where we can just freeze
anything that touches consensus-related, and sometimes refactorings
are necessary. In particular, #4890 introduced separation between a
very fundamental part of consensus logic (script logic) and an
optional optimization for it (caching). If we ever want to get to a
separate consensus code tree or repository, possibly with more strict
reviews, I think changes like this are inevitable.
> I know I
> personally have had a hard time keeping up with the very large volume of code
> being moved and changed for the v0.10 release, and I know BtcDrak - who is
> keeping Viacoin up to date with v0.10 - has also had a hard time giving the
> changes reasonable review. The #4890 pull-req in question had no ACKs at all,
> and only two untested utACKS, which I find worrying for something that made
> significant consensus critical code changes.
I'm sorry to hear that that, and I do understand that many code
movements make this harder. If this is a concern shared by many
people, we can always decide to roll back some refactorings in the
0.10 branch. On the other hand, we don't even have release candidates
yet (which are a pretty important part of the testing and reviewing
process), and doing so would delay things further. 0.10 has many very
significant improvements which are beneficial to the network too,
which I'm sure you're aware of.
It's perfectly reasonable that not everyone has the same bandwidth
available to keep up with changes, and perhaps that means slowing
things down. Again, I don't want to say "this was reviewed before, we
can't go back to this" - but did you really need 3 months to realize
this change? I also see that elsewhere you're complaining about #5421
of yours which hasn't made it in yet - after less than 2 weeks. Yes, I
like the change, and I will review it. Surely you are not arguing it
can be merged without decent review?
> While it would be nice to have a library encapsulating the consensus code, this
> shouldn't come at the cost of safety, especially when the actual users of that
> library or their needs is still uncertain. This is after all a multi-billion
> project where a simple fork will cost miners alone tens of thousands of dollars
> an hour; easily much more if it results in users being defrauded. That's also
> not taking into account the significant negative PR impact and loss of trust. I
> personally would recommend *not* upgrading to v0.10 due to these issues.
I have been very much in favor of a libconsensus library, and for
several reasons. It's a step towards separating out the
consensus-critical parts from optional pieces of the codebase, and it
is a step towards avoiding the "reimplementing consensus code is very
dangerous! ... but we really don't have a way to allow you to reuse
the existing code either" argument. It does not fully accomplish
either of those goals, but gradual steps with time to let changes
mature in between are nice.
> A much safer approach would be to keep the code changes required for a
> consensus library to only simple movements of code for this release, accept
> that the interface to that library won't be ideal, and wait until we have
> feedback from multiple opensource projects with publicly evaluatable code on
> where to go next with the API.
If at this point the consensus code was nicely separated, I would
argue to *copy* it (despite all normal engineering practices that
argue against code duplication), into a frozen separate directory or
even repository, and have all validation related code use the
consensus version, while everything else can use a normal tree
version, which then can evolve at a normal pace, and undergo cleanups,
API changes and feature improvements along with the rest of the code.
Unfortunately, it is not. The consensus code is mixed all over the
place, and this forces unnecessary strain on all development of the
codebase. I hope people agree that getting to a point where this is no
longer the case is important.
--
Pieter
📝 Original message:On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 1:47 PM, Peter Todd <pete at petertodd.org> wrote:
> BtcDrak was working on rebasing my CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY¹ patch to master a few
> days ago and found a fairly large design change that makes merging it currently
> impossible. Pull-req #4890², specifically commit c7829ea7, changed the
> EvalScript() function to take an abstract SignatureChecker object, removing the
> txTo and nIn arguments that used to contain the transaction the script was in
> and the txin # respectively. CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY needs txTo to obtain the
> nLockTime field of the transaction, and it needs nIn to obtain the nSequence of
> the txin.
I agree, and I was thinking earlier that some rebasing would be needed
for CLTV when the change was made. I think this is a good thing
though: #4890 introduced a clear separation between the script
evaluation code and what it can access out of its environment (the
transaction being verified). As CLTV changes the amount available out
of the environment, this indeed requires changing the interface.
> We need to fix this if CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY is to be merged.
Done. See https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/cltv2 for a rebased
version of the BIP65 code on top of 0.10 and master. I haven't ported
any tests you may have that are not in the BIP, to avoid doing double
work. Those should apply cleanly. There is a less clean version (IMHO)
with smaller code changes wrt to the BIP code in my 'cltv' branch too.
> Secondly, that this change was made, and the manner in which is was made, is I
> think indicative of a development process that has been taking significant
> risks with regard to refactoring the consensus critical codebase.
I fully agree that we shouldn't be taking unnecessary risks when
changing consensus code. For example, I closed #5091 (which I would
very much have liked as a code improvement) when realizing the risks.
That said, I don't believe we are at a point where we can just freeze
anything that touches consensus-related, and sometimes refactorings
are necessary. In particular, #4890 introduced separation between a
very fundamental part of consensus logic (script logic) and an
optional optimization for it (caching). If we ever want to get to a
separate consensus code tree or repository, possibly with more strict
reviews, I think changes like this are inevitable.
> I know I
> personally have had a hard time keeping up with the very large volume of code
> being moved and changed for the v0.10 release, and I know BtcDrak - who is
> keeping Viacoin up to date with v0.10 - has also had a hard time giving the
> changes reasonable review. The #4890 pull-req in question had no ACKs at all,
> and only two untested utACKS, which I find worrying for something that made
> significant consensus critical code changes.
I'm sorry to hear that that, and I do understand that many code
movements make this harder. If this is a concern shared by many
people, we can always decide to roll back some refactorings in the
0.10 branch. On the other hand, we don't even have release candidates
yet (which are a pretty important part of the testing and reviewing
process), and doing so would delay things further. 0.10 has many very
significant improvements which are beneficial to the network too,
which I'm sure you're aware of.
It's perfectly reasonable that not everyone has the same bandwidth
available to keep up with changes, and perhaps that means slowing
things down. Again, I don't want to say "this was reviewed before, we
can't go back to this" - but did you really need 3 months to realize
this change? I also see that elsewhere you're complaining about #5421
of yours which hasn't made it in yet - after less than 2 weeks. Yes, I
like the change, and I will review it. Surely you are not arguing it
can be merged without decent review?
> While it would be nice to have a library encapsulating the consensus code, this
> shouldn't come at the cost of safety, especially when the actual users of that
> library or their needs is still uncertain. This is after all a multi-billion
> project where a simple fork will cost miners alone tens of thousands of dollars
> an hour; easily much more if it results in users being defrauded. That's also
> not taking into account the significant negative PR impact and loss of trust. I
> personally would recommend *not* upgrading to v0.10 due to these issues.
I have been very much in favor of a libconsensus library, and for
several reasons. It's a step towards separating out the
consensus-critical parts from optional pieces of the codebase, and it
is a step towards avoiding the "reimplementing consensus code is very
dangerous! ... but we really don't have a way to allow you to reuse
the existing code either" argument. It does not fully accomplish
either of those goals, but gradual steps with time to let changes
mature in between are nice.
> A much safer approach would be to keep the code changes required for a
> consensus library to only simple movements of code for this release, accept
> that the interface to that library won't be ideal, and wait until we have
> feedback from multiple opensource projects with publicly evaluatable code on
> where to go next with the API.
If at this point the consensus code was nicely separated, I would
argue to *copy* it (despite all normal engineering practices that
argue against code duplication), into a frozen separate directory or
even repository, and have all validation related code use the
consensus version, while everything else can use a normal tree
version, which then can evolve at a normal pace, and undergo cleanups,
API changes and feature improvements along with the rest of the code.
Unfortunately, it is not. The consensus code is mixed all over the
place, and this forces unnecessary strain on all development of the
codebase. I hope people agree that getting to a point where this is no
longer the case is important.
--
Pieter