Troy Benjegerdes [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2014-04-07 📝 Original message:I have to play dissenter ...
📅 Original date posted:2014-04-07
📝 Original message:I have to play dissenter here again..
Using a bitcoin address as a persistent identity key is the first real-world
use of Bitcoin that I can imagine will make it a 'killer app' that everyone
and their grandma will want to use.
If you think 'certificates' are a good solution, then there is some way in
which we have dramatically divergent goals.
I like distributed, decentralized systems in which anyone can download the
code and be free to participate in the things they want to securely and
reliably.
As soon as I hear 'certificate', I see a system in which one must pay at toll
to speak, and which puts the listeners at risk because a certificate issuer
is such a high-value target for malicious attack.
Self-signed certificates are great for techno-wizards, but grandma has no
idea if the self-signed cert was signed by her grandson, or by the hacker
trying to redirect her social security check.
"This is your bitcoin address, it's your money AND your key to log into
your bank website securely, so don't lose it. If you want our address
protection insurance service that will be $20 per month, and if you do lose
it, we'll fix it. If you keep losing it, then your rates will go up, just
like car insurance if you keep crashing"
On Fri, Apr 04, 2014 at 09:32:40AM -0400, Gavin Andresen wrote:
> Using a bitcoin address repeatedly is something we're trying to move away
> from.
>
> And using a bitcoin address as a persistent identity key feels like the
> wrong direction to me.
>
> Better to use something like client certificates, the FIDO alliance's
> (new!) specs:
> http://fidoalliance.org/specifications/download
>
> ... or Steve Gibson's proposed SQRL system:
> https://www.grc.com/sqrl/sqrl.htm
>
> If one of those systems gets critical mass and actually starts being
> successful, then I think it would make sense to specify a standard way of
> using a HD wallet's deterministic seed to derive a key used for the FIDO or
> SQRL systems.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 9:22 AM, Eric Larchevêque <elarch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > What I'm trying to achieve, is to have a very simple way of authenticating
> > yourself with one Bitcoin address from your wallet.
> > For most of the people using Bitcoin, their wallet is on their phone.
> >
> > The UX is clear and simple :
> > 1. click on "connect with Bitcoin" (the audience is normal people)
> > 2. flash the QRcode with your wallet (blockchain.info, mycelium, ...)
> > 3. accept the authentication request (same style than OpenID or Facebook
> > connect)
> > 4. user is autologged and identified by the chosen Bitcoin public address
> >
> > It makes sense only if major wallets are supporting the protocol. If you
> > need to install a plugin or download a third party software, no one will do
> > it.
> > I see only benefits for the entire ecosystem, and if I'm working on such a
> > proposition it is because I really need this feature.
> >
> > Of course, it can be done without a BIP, I just need to convince wallet
> > developpers one by one to implement the feature.
> > But I thought it was much better to start the "official" way, so all
> > wallet could easily find and implement the same authentication mechanism.
> >
> > > Bitcoin and website authentication are unrelated problems
> >
> > I respectfully disagree. Many services require your Bitcoin address, and
> > to do that they artificially request an email/password to store it.
> > This is not about authentication as an identity (as "I'm Eric
> > Larcheveque"), but as in "I'm proving to you that I control this address".
> >
> > Without such a standard protocol, you could never envision a pure Bitcoin
> > physical locker rental, or booking an hotel room via Bitcoin and opening
> > the door through the paying address.
> >
> > Eric
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 3:08 PM, Mike Hearn <mike at plan99.net> wrote:
> >
> >> This comes up every few months. I think the problem you are trying to
> >> solve is already solved by SSL client certificates, and if you want to help
> >> make them more widespread the programs you need to upgrade are web browsers
> >> and not Bitcoin wallets. There are certainly bits of infrastructure you
> >> could reuse here and there, like perhaps a TREZOR with a custom firmware
> >> extension for really advanced/keen users, but overall Bitcoin and website
> >> authentication are unrelated problems.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 2:15 PM, Eric Larchevêque <elarch at gmail.com>wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hello,
> >>>
> >>> I've written a draft BIP description of an authentication protocol based
> >>> on Bitcoin public address.
> >>>
> >>> By authentication we mean to prove to a service/application that we
> >>> control a specific Bitcoin address by signing a challenge, and that all
> >>> related data and settings may securely be linked to our session.
> >>>
> >>> The aim is to greatly facilitate sign ups and logins to services and
> >>> applications, improving the Bitcoin ecosystem as a whole.
> >>>
> >>> https://github.com/bitid/bitid/blob/master/BIP_draft.md
> >>>
> >>> Demo website :
> >>> http://bitid-demo.herokuapp.com/
> >>>
> >>> Classical password authentication is an insecure process that could be
> >>> solved with public key cryptography. The problem is that it theoretically
> >>> offloads a lot of complexity and responsibility on the user. Managing
> >>> private keys securely is complex. However this complexity is already being
> >>> addressed in the Bitcoin ecosystem. So doing public key authentication is
> >>> practically a free lunch to bitcoiners.
> >>>
> >>> I've formatted the protocol description as a BIP because this is the
> >>> only way to have all major wallets implementing it, and because it
> >>> completely fits in my opinion the BIP "process" category.
> >>>
> >>> Please read it and let me know your thoughts and comments so we can
> >>> improve on this draft.
> >>>
> >>> Eric Larcheveque
> >>> elarch at gmail.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> >>> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
> > Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> --
> Gavin Andresen
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Troy Benjegerdes 'da hozer' hozer at hozed.org
7 elements earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soul grid.coop
Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel,
nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash
📝 Original message:I have to play dissenter here again..
Using a bitcoin address as a persistent identity key is the first real-world
use of Bitcoin that I can imagine will make it a 'killer app' that everyone
and their grandma will want to use.
If you think 'certificates' are a good solution, then there is some way in
which we have dramatically divergent goals.
I like distributed, decentralized systems in which anyone can download the
code and be free to participate in the things they want to securely and
reliably.
As soon as I hear 'certificate', I see a system in which one must pay at toll
to speak, and which puts the listeners at risk because a certificate issuer
is such a high-value target for malicious attack.
Self-signed certificates are great for techno-wizards, but grandma has no
idea if the self-signed cert was signed by her grandson, or by the hacker
trying to redirect her social security check.
"This is your bitcoin address, it's your money AND your key to log into
your bank website securely, so don't lose it. If you want our address
protection insurance service that will be $20 per month, and if you do lose
it, we'll fix it. If you keep losing it, then your rates will go up, just
like car insurance if you keep crashing"
On Fri, Apr 04, 2014 at 09:32:40AM -0400, Gavin Andresen wrote:
> Using a bitcoin address repeatedly is something we're trying to move away
> from.
>
> And using a bitcoin address as a persistent identity key feels like the
> wrong direction to me.
>
> Better to use something like client certificates, the FIDO alliance's
> (new!) specs:
> http://fidoalliance.org/specifications/download
>
> ... or Steve Gibson's proposed SQRL system:
> https://www.grc.com/sqrl/sqrl.htm
>
> If one of those systems gets critical mass and actually starts being
> successful, then I think it would make sense to specify a standard way of
> using a HD wallet's deterministic seed to derive a key used for the FIDO or
> SQRL systems.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 9:22 AM, Eric Larchevêque <elarch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > What I'm trying to achieve, is to have a very simple way of authenticating
> > yourself with one Bitcoin address from your wallet.
> > For most of the people using Bitcoin, their wallet is on their phone.
> >
> > The UX is clear and simple :
> > 1. click on "connect with Bitcoin" (the audience is normal people)
> > 2. flash the QRcode with your wallet (blockchain.info, mycelium, ...)
> > 3. accept the authentication request (same style than OpenID or Facebook
> > connect)
> > 4. user is autologged and identified by the chosen Bitcoin public address
> >
> > It makes sense only if major wallets are supporting the protocol. If you
> > need to install a plugin or download a third party software, no one will do
> > it.
> > I see only benefits for the entire ecosystem, and if I'm working on such a
> > proposition it is because I really need this feature.
> >
> > Of course, it can be done without a BIP, I just need to convince wallet
> > developpers one by one to implement the feature.
> > But I thought it was much better to start the "official" way, so all
> > wallet could easily find and implement the same authentication mechanism.
> >
> > > Bitcoin and website authentication are unrelated problems
> >
> > I respectfully disagree. Many services require your Bitcoin address, and
> > to do that they artificially request an email/password to store it.
> > This is not about authentication as an identity (as "I'm Eric
> > Larcheveque"), but as in "I'm proving to you that I control this address".
> >
> > Without such a standard protocol, you could never envision a pure Bitcoin
> > physical locker rental, or booking an hotel room via Bitcoin and opening
> > the door through the paying address.
> >
> > Eric
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 3:08 PM, Mike Hearn <mike at plan99.net> wrote:
> >
> >> This comes up every few months. I think the problem you are trying to
> >> solve is already solved by SSL client certificates, and if you want to help
> >> make them more widespread the programs you need to upgrade are web browsers
> >> and not Bitcoin wallets. There are certainly bits of infrastructure you
> >> could reuse here and there, like perhaps a TREZOR with a custom firmware
> >> extension for really advanced/keen users, but overall Bitcoin and website
> >> authentication are unrelated problems.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 2:15 PM, Eric Larchevêque <elarch at gmail.com>wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hello,
> >>>
> >>> I've written a draft BIP description of an authentication protocol based
> >>> on Bitcoin public address.
> >>>
> >>> By authentication we mean to prove to a service/application that we
> >>> control a specific Bitcoin address by signing a challenge, and that all
> >>> related data and settings may securely be linked to our session.
> >>>
> >>> The aim is to greatly facilitate sign ups and logins to services and
> >>> applications, improving the Bitcoin ecosystem as a whole.
> >>>
> >>> https://github.com/bitid/bitid/blob/master/BIP_draft.md
> >>>
> >>> Demo website :
> >>> http://bitid-demo.herokuapp.com/
> >>>
> >>> Classical password authentication is an insecure process that could be
> >>> solved with public key cryptography. The problem is that it theoretically
> >>> offloads a lot of complexity and responsibility on the user. Managing
> >>> private keys securely is complex. However this complexity is already being
> >>> addressed in the Bitcoin ecosystem. So doing public key authentication is
> >>> practically a free lunch to bitcoiners.
> >>>
> >>> I've formatted the protocol description as a BIP because this is the
> >>> only way to have all major wallets implementing it, and because it
> >>> completely fits in my opinion the BIP "process" category.
> >>>
> >>> Please read it and let me know your thoughts and comments so we can
> >>> improve on this draft.
> >>>
> >>> Eric Larcheveque
> >>> elarch at gmail.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> >>> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
> > Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> --
> Gavin Andresen
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Troy Benjegerdes 'da hozer' hozer at hozed.org
7 elements earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soul grid.coop
Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel,
nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash