Billy Tetrud [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2022-05-01 📝 Original message:+1 alicexbt We of course ...
📅 Original date posted:2022-05-01
📝 Original message:+1 alicexbt
We of course want knowledgeable bitcoiners who aren't knowledgeable about a
certain proposal to be skeptical. But what we don't want is for that
natural skepticism-from-ignorance to be interpreted as opposition, or
really a strong signal of any kind. Any thoughts from ignorance, whether
self-aware or not, should be given small weight. It seems the vast majority
of push back has been this kind of skepticism from ignorance. And to a
certain degree I think we want to give time for understanding to those who
have not participated in the first, second, third, etc round of discussion
on a proposal. It may not be reasonable to say "you had the last 2 years of
time to voice your concern".
Now that CTV is being taken seriously as a proposal, we probably should
give the community who is finally taking a serious look at it time to
understand, get their questions answered, and come to terms with it. This
is not to say that CTV as a technology or proposal has been rushed, or has
not had enough work put into it, but rather that the community as a whole
has not paid enough attention to it for long enough.
The wrong approach is: "how do I yell more loudly next time I see something
I'm uncomfortable with?" The right approach is to educate those who aren't
educated on the proposal and gather consensus on what people think when
they understand enough about it to contribute to that consensus. If you
care about consensus, you should respect the consensus process and be ok
with consensus being not your preferred outcome. If you don't care about
consensus, then you're basically attacking the bitcoin community.
On Sun, May 1, 2022 at 3:22 AM alicexbt via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> Hi Michael,
>
> Maybe the whole thing worked as designed. Some users identified what was
> going on, well known Bitcoin educators such as Andreas Antonopoulos, Jimmy
> Song etc brought additional attention to the dangers, a URSF movement
> started to gain momentum and those attempting a contentious soft fork
> activation backed off. (Disappointingly Bitcoin Optech didn't cover my
> previous posts to this mailing list 1
> <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-October/019535.html>;,
> 2
> <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-January/019728.html>;,
> 3
> <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-April/020235.html>;
> highlighting the dangers many months ago or recent posts. Normally Optech
> is very high signal.)
>
>
> Some users have been misled and there is nothing great being achieved by
> doing this on social media. Andreas is clueless about BIP 119 and other
> covenant proposals. He is spreading misinformation and some of the URSF
> enthusiasts do not understand what are they even opposing or going to run
> with risks involved.
>
>
> Answering the subject of this email: "What to do when contentious soft
> forks activations are attempted?"
>
> - Do not consider something contentious because someone said it on mailing
> list
> - Do not spread misinformation
> - Read all posts in detail with different opinions
> - Avoid personal attacks
> - Look at the technical details, code etc. and comment on things that
> could be improved
>
>
>
> /dev/fd0
>
> Sent with ProtonMail <https://protonmail.com/>; secure email.
>
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Saturday, April 30th, 2022 at 3:23 PM, Michael Folkson via bitcoin-dev
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org wrote:
>
>
> I’ve been in two minds on whether to completely move on to other topics or
> to formulate some thoughts on the recent attempt to activate a contentious
> soft fork. In the interests of those of us who have wasted
> days/weeks/months of our time on this (with no personal upside) and who
> don’t want to repeat this exercise again I thought I should at least raise
> the issue for discussion of what should be done differently if this is
> tried again in future.
>
> This could be Jeremy with OP_CTV at a later point (assuming it is still
> contentious) or anyone who wants to pick up a single opcode that is not yet
> activated on Bitcoin and try to get miners to signal for it bypassing
> technical concerns from many developers, bypassing Bitcoin Core and
> bypassing users.
>
> Maybe the whole thing worked as designed. Some users identified what was
> going on, well known Bitcoin educators such as Andreas Antonopoulos, Jimmy
> Song etc brought additional attention to the dangers, a URSF movement
> started to gain momentum and those attempting a contentious soft fork
> activation backed off. (Disappointingly Bitcoin Optech didn't cover my
> previous posts to this mailing list 1
> <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-October/019535.html>;,
> 2
> <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-January/019728.html>;,
> 3
> <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-April/020235.html>;
> highlighting the dangers many months ago or recent posts. Normally Optech
> is very high signal.)
>
> Alternatively this was the first time a contentious soft fork activation
> was attempted, we were all woefully unprepared for it and none of us knew
> what we were doing.
>
> I’m unsure on the above. I’d be interested to hear thoughts. What I am
> sure of is that it is totally unacceptable for one individual to bring the
> entire Bitcoin network to the brink of a chain split. There has to be a
> personal cost to that individual dissuading them from trying it again
> otherwise they’re motivated to try it again every week/month. Perhaps the
> personal cost that the community is now prepared if that individual tries
> it again is sufficient. I’m not sure. Obviously Bitcoin is a permissionless
> network, Bitcoin Core and other open source projects are easily forked and
> no authority (I’m certainly no authority) can stop things like this
> happening again.
>
> I’ll follow the responses if people have thoughts (I won't be responding
> to the instigators of this contentious soft fork activation attempt) but
> other than that I’d like to move on to other things than contentious soft
> fork activations. Thanks to those who have expressed concerns publicly (too
> many to name, Bob McElrath was often wording arguments better than I could)
> and who were willing to engage with the URSF conversation. If an individual
> can go directly to miners to get soft forks activated bypassing technical
> concerns from many developers, bypassing Bitcoin Core and bypassing users
> Bitcoin is fundamentally broken. The reason I still have hope that it isn't
> is that during a period of general apathy some people were willing to stand
> up and actively resist it.
>
> --
> Michael Folkson
> Email: michaelfolkson at protonmail.com
> Keybase: michaelfolkson
> PGP: 43ED C999 9F85 1D40 EAF4 9835 92D6 0159 214C FEE3
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
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📝 Original message:+1 alicexbt
We of course want knowledgeable bitcoiners who aren't knowledgeable about a
certain proposal to be skeptical. But what we don't want is for that
natural skepticism-from-ignorance to be interpreted as opposition, or
really a strong signal of any kind. Any thoughts from ignorance, whether
self-aware or not, should be given small weight. It seems the vast majority
of push back has been this kind of skepticism from ignorance. And to a
certain degree I think we want to give time for understanding to those who
have not participated in the first, second, third, etc round of discussion
on a proposal. It may not be reasonable to say "you had the last 2 years of
time to voice your concern".
Now that CTV is being taken seriously as a proposal, we probably should
give the community who is finally taking a serious look at it time to
understand, get their questions answered, and come to terms with it. This
is not to say that CTV as a technology or proposal has been rushed, or has
not had enough work put into it, but rather that the community as a whole
has not paid enough attention to it for long enough.
The wrong approach is: "how do I yell more loudly next time I see something
I'm uncomfortable with?" The right approach is to educate those who aren't
educated on the proposal and gather consensus on what people think when
they understand enough about it to contribute to that consensus. If you
care about consensus, you should respect the consensus process and be ok
with consensus being not your preferred outcome. If you don't care about
consensus, then you're basically attacking the bitcoin community.
On Sun, May 1, 2022 at 3:22 AM alicexbt via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> Hi Michael,
>
> Maybe the whole thing worked as designed. Some users identified what was
> going on, well known Bitcoin educators such as Andreas Antonopoulos, Jimmy
> Song etc brought additional attention to the dangers, a URSF movement
> started to gain momentum and those attempting a contentious soft fork
> activation backed off. (Disappointingly Bitcoin Optech didn't cover my
> previous posts to this mailing list 1
> <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-October/019535.html>;,
> 2
> <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-January/019728.html>;,
> 3
> <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-April/020235.html>;
> highlighting the dangers many months ago or recent posts. Normally Optech
> is very high signal.)
>
>
> Some users have been misled and there is nothing great being achieved by
> doing this on social media. Andreas is clueless about BIP 119 and other
> covenant proposals. He is spreading misinformation and some of the URSF
> enthusiasts do not understand what are they even opposing or going to run
> with risks involved.
>
>
> Answering the subject of this email: "What to do when contentious soft
> forks activations are attempted?"
>
> - Do not consider something contentious because someone said it on mailing
> list
> - Do not spread misinformation
> - Read all posts in detail with different opinions
> - Avoid personal attacks
> - Look at the technical details, code etc. and comment on things that
> could be improved
>
>
>
> /dev/fd0
>
> Sent with ProtonMail <https://protonmail.com/>; secure email.
>
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Saturday, April 30th, 2022 at 3:23 PM, Michael Folkson via bitcoin-dev
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org wrote:
>
>
> I’ve been in two minds on whether to completely move on to other topics or
> to formulate some thoughts on the recent attempt to activate a contentious
> soft fork. In the interests of those of us who have wasted
> days/weeks/months of our time on this (with no personal upside) and who
> don’t want to repeat this exercise again I thought I should at least raise
> the issue for discussion of what should be done differently if this is
> tried again in future.
>
> This could be Jeremy with OP_CTV at a later point (assuming it is still
> contentious) or anyone who wants to pick up a single opcode that is not yet
> activated on Bitcoin and try to get miners to signal for it bypassing
> technical concerns from many developers, bypassing Bitcoin Core and
> bypassing users.
>
> Maybe the whole thing worked as designed. Some users identified what was
> going on, well known Bitcoin educators such as Andreas Antonopoulos, Jimmy
> Song etc brought additional attention to the dangers, a URSF movement
> started to gain momentum and those attempting a contentious soft fork
> activation backed off. (Disappointingly Bitcoin Optech didn't cover my
> previous posts to this mailing list 1
> <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-October/019535.html>;,
> 2
> <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-January/019728.html>;,
> 3
> <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-April/020235.html>;
> highlighting the dangers many months ago or recent posts. Normally Optech
> is very high signal.)
>
> Alternatively this was the first time a contentious soft fork activation
> was attempted, we were all woefully unprepared for it and none of us knew
> what we were doing.
>
> I’m unsure on the above. I’d be interested to hear thoughts. What I am
> sure of is that it is totally unacceptable for one individual to bring the
> entire Bitcoin network to the brink of a chain split. There has to be a
> personal cost to that individual dissuading them from trying it again
> otherwise they’re motivated to try it again every week/month. Perhaps the
> personal cost that the community is now prepared if that individual tries
> it again is sufficient. I’m not sure. Obviously Bitcoin is a permissionless
> network, Bitcoin Core and other open source projects are easily forked and
> no authority (I’m certainly no authority) can stop things like this
> happening again.
>
> I’ll follow the responses if people have thoughts (I won't be responding
> to the instigators of this contentious soft fork activation attempt) but
> other than that I’d like to move on to other things than contentious soft
> fork activations. Thanks to those who have expressed concerns publicly (too
> many to name, Bob McElrath was often wording arguments better than I could)
> and who were willing to engage with the URSF conversation. If an individual
> can go directly to miners to get soft forks activated bypassing technical
> concerns from many developers, bypassing Bitcoin Core and bypassing users
> Bitcoin is fundamentally broken. The reason I still have hope that it isn't
> is that during a period of general apathy some people were willing to stand
> up and actively resist it.
>
> --
> Michael Folkson
> Email: michaelfolkson at protonmail.com
> Keybase: michaelfolkson
> PGP: 43ED C999 9F85 1D40 EAF4 9835 92D6 0159 214C FEE3
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
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