Jeff Garzik [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: š Original date posted:2014-03-01 š Original message:This is not ...
š
Original date posted:2014-03-01
š Original message:This is not bitcoin-philosophy, it's bitcoin-development. Existential
philosophy belongs on IRC or the forums.
On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Mark Friedenbach <mark at monetize.io> wrote:
> Only if you view bitcoin as no more than a payment network.
>
> On Mar 1, 2014 10:24 AM, "Jeff Garzik" <jgarzik at bitpay.com> wrote:
>>
>> This is wandering far off-topic for this mailing list.
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Troy Benjegerdes <hozer at hozed.org> wrote:
>> >> > You can make the same argument against Bitcoin itself you know...
>> >> >
>> >> > A Bitmessage-like network would be trivial to front-run via a sybil
>> >> > attack. It's the fundemental problem with marketplaces - the data
>> >> > they're trying to publish has to be public.
>> >>
>> >> I don't see the Bitcoin analogy...
>> >> Anyway, I still don't think the seller cares, if he sells at the price
>> >> he was asking, what would he care about "front running" those parallel
>> >> networks.
>> >> I've seen many street markets without "public information" and they
>> >> work just well.
>> >
>> > The spot price for ammonia fertilizer, refined gasoline at terminals,
>> > and price of tea in china are not 'public information', yet these are
>> > some of the largest traded commodities in the world, far exceeding
>> > the drop in the bucket that all cryptocoin transactions make.
>> >
>> > I'd further argue that the *actual* price of corn (cash bid price at
>> > elevators and ethanol plants) is not public information either. There
>> > is a great deal of money traded in collecting and then distributing the
>> > 'cleared price' information. Have a look at
>> >
>> > http://www.interquote.com/template.cfm?navgroup=aboutlist&urlcode=12&view=1
>> >
>> >
>> >> >> I don't think this will be a tragedy, because like we discussed on
>> >> >> IRC, I don't think the primary goal of markets is price discovery,
>> >> >> but
>> >> >> trade itself.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> About historic data, the actual trades are always public, and some
>> >> >> kind of "archivers" could collect and maintain old orders for
>> >> >> historic
>> >> >> bid and asks, etc.
>> >> >
>> >> > And again, how do you know that record is honest? Fact is without
>> >> > proof-of-publication you just don't.
>> >>
>> >> Well, the trades that appeared in the chain actually occurred.
>> >> Buying to yourself at fake prices? Be careful, the miner could just
>> >> separate the order and fill it himself. Or anyone paying a higher fee,
>> >> for that matter.
>> >
>> > You just made my long-term strategic argument for investing in my own
>> > mining hardware so I can be sure to trade reliably.
>> >
>> >> Again, you haven't addressed why the seller cares more about "accurate
>> >> historic market data" than just his own fees and sell.
>> >>
>> >> > You mean a reverse nLockTime that makes a transaction invalid after a
>> >> > certain amount of time - that's dangerous in a reorg unfortunately as
>> >> > it
>> >> > can make transactions permenantly invalid.
>> >
>> > People who take money from buyers and sellers care most about 'accurate
>> > historic market data'. I just want to exchange my corn for e85,
>> > fertilizer,
>> > and electricity, and audit the code that runs accounting for the
>> > exchange.
>> >
>> > I really don't give a shit if there is 'accurate historic market data'
>> > as
>> > long as **MY** personal trade data is accurate and I got a good enough
>> > price,
>> > and I know who I'm dealing with.
>> >
>> > I know someone smarter than me and with more money, market leverage, and
>> > political connections **WILL** game the system and distort the market
>> > data
>> > history so they can take more money from buyers and sellers without
>> > actually
>> > doing some usefull market function.
>> >
>> > As long as use buyers and sellers can see the code, and have a good eye
>> > for
>> > knowing when someone's pushing the market around, we can just put our
>> > orders
>> > in and relieve some speculators of their money.
>> >
>> > Just get me working code for cross-chain trades, and we'll work on the
>> > accurate historic data problem later.
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Troy Benjegerdes 'da hozer'
>> > hozer at hozed.org
>> > 7 elements earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soul
>> > grid.coop
>> >
>> > Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel,
>> > nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool.
>> > Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow Analyzer
>> > Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate reports.
>> > Network behavioral analysis & security monitoring. All-in-one tool.
>> >
>> > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=126839071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> > Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jeff Garzik
>> Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
>> BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool.
>> Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow Analyzer
>> Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate reports.
>> Network behavioral analysis & security monitoring. All-in-one tool.
>>
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=126839071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
š Original message:This is not bitcoin-philosophy, it's bitcoin-development. Existential
philosophy belongs on IRC or the forums.
On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Mark Friedenbach <mark at monetize.io> wrote:
> Only if you view bitcoin as no more than a payment network.
>
> On Mar 1, 2014 10:24 AM, "Jeff Garzik" <jgarzik at bitpay.com> wrote:
>>
>> This is wandering far off-topic for this mailing list.
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Troy Benjegerdes <hozer at hozed.org> wrote:
>> >> > You can make the same argument against Bitcoin itself you know...
>> >> >
>> >> > A Bitmessage-like network would be trivial to front-run via a sybil
>> >> > attack. It's the fundemental problem with marketplaces - the data
>> >> > they're trying to publish has to be public.
>> >>
>> >> I don't see the Bitcoin analogy...
>> >> Anyway, I still don't think the seller cares, if he sells at the price
>> >> he was asking, what would he care about "front running" those parallel
>> >> networks.
>> >> I've seen many street markets without "public information" and they
>> >> work just well.
>> >
>> > The spot price for ammonia fertilizer, refined gasoline at terminals,
>> > and price of tea in china are not 'public information', yet these are
>> > some of the largest traded commodities in the world, far exceeding
>> > the drop in the bucket that all cryptocoin transactions make.
>> >
>> > I'd further argue that the *actual* price of corn (cash bid price at
>> > elevators and ethanol plants) is not public information either. There
>> > is a great deal of money traded in collecting and then distributing the
>> > 'cleared price' information. Have a look at
>> >
>> > http://www.interquote.com/template.cfm?navgroup=aboutlist&urlcode=12&view=1
>> >
>> >
>> >> >> I don't think this will be a tragedy, because like we discussed on
>> >> >> IRC, I don't think the primary goal of markets is price discovery,
>> >> >> but
>> >> >> trade itself.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> About historic data, the actual trades are always public, and some
>> >> >> kind of "archivers" could collect and maintain old orders for
>> >> >> historic
>> >> >> bid and asks, etc.
>> >> >
>> >> > And again, how do you know that record is honest? Fact is without
>> >> > proof-of-publication you just don't.
>> >>
>> >> Well, the trades that appeared in the chain actually occurred.
>> >> Buying to yourself at fake prices? Be careful, the miner could just
>> >> separate the order and fill it himself. Or anyone paying a higher fee,
>> >> for that matter.
>> >
>> > You just made my long-term strategic argument for investing in my own
>> > mining hardware so I can be sure to trade reliably.
>> >
>> >> Again, you haven't addressed why the seller cares more about "accurate
>> >> historic market data" than just his own fees and sell.
>> >>
>> >> > You mean a reverse nLockTime that makes a transaction invalid after a
>> >> > certain amount of time - that's dangerous in a reorg unfortunately as
>> >> > it
>> >> > can make transactions permenantly invalid.
>> >
>> > People who take money from buyers and sellers care most about 'accurate
>> > historic market data'. I just want to exchange my corn for e85,
>> > fertilizer,
>> > and electricity, and audit the code that runs accounting for the
>> > exchange.
>> >
>> > I really don't give a shit if there is 'accurate historic market data'
>> > as
>> > long as **MY** personal trade data is accurate and I got a good enough
>> > price,
>> > and I know who I'm dealing with.
>> >
>> > I know someone smarter than me and with more money, market leverage, and
>> > political connections **WILL** game the system and distort the market
>> > data
>> > history so they can take more money from buyers and sellers without
>> > actually
>> > doing some usefull market function.
>> >
>> > As long as use buyers and sellers can see the code, and have a good eye
>> > for
>> > knowing when someone's pushing the market around, we can just put our
>> > orders
>> > in and relieve some speculators of their money.
>> >
>> > Just get me working code for cross-chain trades, and we'll work on the
>> > accurate historic data problem later.
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Troy Benjegerdes 'da hozer'
>> > hozer at hozed.org
>> > 7 elements earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soul
>> > grid.coop
>> >
>> > Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel,
>> > nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool.
>> > Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow Analyzer
>> > Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate reports.
>> > Network behavioral analysis & security monitoring. All-in-one tool.
>> >
>> > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=126839071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> > Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jeff Garzik
>> Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
>> BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool.
>> Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow Analyzer
>> Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate reports.
>> Network behavioral analysis & security monitoring. All-in-one tool.
>>
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=126839071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/