Aymeric Vitte [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2023-05-12 🗒️ Summary of this message: A warning to ...
📅 Original date posted:2023-05-12
🗒️ Summary of this message: A warning to the Lightning community to avoid off-topic discussions, as it destroyed the Tor-talk mailing list, leading to a lack of discussion.
📝 Original message:
Lightning list, I really think that you should stop this mess and
reconcentrate on technical topics
The very same did destroy the Tor-talk mailing list
Based on false assumptions as we saw later
Reading bulls all the day, everybody escaped
Result: the Tor community can't discuss any longer
Don't do the same
Le 11/05/2023 à 19:48, alicexbt via Lightning-dev a écrit :
> Hi Antoine,
>
>> I can say missing an open-source engineering meeting or being
>> revoked a few Github permissions matters far less than the clear
>> affirmation and respect of the freedom of expression, the presumption
>> of innocence and due process in the Bitcoin common space, all
>> proportions conserved.
>
> This is not acceptable. I will fight with you. Never feel alone.
>
> /devfd0
> floppy disk guy
>
> Sent with Proton Mail <https://proton.me/>; secure email.
>
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Wednesday, May 10th, 2023 at 10:27 PM, Antoine Riard
> <antoine.riard at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Tony,
>>
>> > Is there a better place to havepubliccommunication? Unfortunately
>> since one off topic email was sent here, it's been a ghost town. It
>> appears that there's many emails being held and only one moderator
>> that checks them once a week.
>>
>> As I think you're referring to my post of March 21th and as the
>> author of this post, I'll politely refuse the qualification of
>> "off-topic". I had and I still have the concerns of "frivolous legal
>> claims" being used between bitcoin developers/organizations provoking
>> a distortion of the neutrality of the development and a chilling
>> effect of the technical discussions (i.e code we compile and spec we
>> implement). For those reasons, it was my legal right and moral duty
>> to inform the community of what is happening between Chaincode and
>> myself. And here I'm following the recommendation of one of the
>> moderators of the Lightning mailing list himself "If this worries you
>> too, let's make sure we keep each other honest, OK?" [0].
>>
>> When you think a group of people with open-source responsibilities
>> are in a situation of conflict of interests or "moral hazards", or
>> even the appearance of them, you have the right to expose the
>> wrongdoing, including the _proportional_ revelation of private
>> elements. People have done the "free choice" to conduct a career in
>> open-source, for some even declaring in some context to maintain
>> integrity and accept their actions to be submitted to external
>> accountability [1]. While the exposure of private elements of public
>> personalities might break common courtesy, it's a morally valid
>> practice if you're familiar with the public institutions of US and
>> Europe, and I think this practice has found validity in the history
>> of open-source commons or IETF's protocol development [1].
>>
>> Beyond, the Bitcoin and Lightning development communication channels
>> constitute a public forum, where by nature the participants are
>> exchanging ideas and defending competing interests. In consequence,
>> the participants' rights and capabilities to contribute and speak
>> their minds in those communication channels should be protected.
>> Those communication channels are not your usual corporate workplace,
>> and in case of conflicting principles, the maintainers of those
>> communication channels should ensure a balance of rights and a
>> proportionality in any restraining measure.
>>
>> And this new post is not to exonerate myself of any legal
>> responsibility for personal matters that could be recognized as the
>> outcome of a judicial process, respective of both rights of the
>> accusation and rights of the defense. Rather to enlighten the Bitcoin
>> community that the formal separation between private matters and
>> open-source responsibilities, and the adequate check-and-balances to
>> guarantee this separation is somehow what are the underlying stakes
>> for this feud between Chaincode and myself, from my perspective. I
>> can say missing an open-source engineering meeting or being revoked a
>> few Github permissions matters far less than the clear affirmation
>> and respect of the freedom of expression, the presumption of
>> innocence and due process in the Bitcoin common space, all
>> proportions conserved.
>>
>> I don't blame any party involved in this issue, nor assign "bad
>> intentions''. One position is really a function of your life
>> experiences, knowledge of the legal and cultural framework and access
>> to the factual elements. As all human conflicts it is not binary
>> rather "grey". People can be top executives at a billion-dollar
>> company, having successful ventures with hundreds of folks under
>> management, or have a lot of responsibilities for their relative
>> young age, and still disagree on the set of legal and moral
>> principles to apply in the present case.
>>
>> Finally, thanks to the Bitcoin friends who have reached out to call
>> for level-headedness and cool-mindness in the public discussion of
>> this complex topic. Like I said to them, in the lack of more
>> suspected wrongdoing from the other side, I won't communicate further
>> on this subject on the Bitcoin and Lightning technical channels.
>> However I still firmly believe the discussion on the principles,
>> abstract in the maximum from its private elements, should still be
>> pursued on other channels. Independently, there is a legal channel
>> opened between Chaincode and myself and good progress is made to find
>> a serene and long-standing resolution to this issue.
>>
>> Best,
>> Antoine
>>
>> [0]
>> https://rusty-lightning.medium.com/the-corrosion-of-ethics-in-cryptocurrencies-f7ba77e9dfc3
>> [1]
>> https://github.com/btrustteam/board-book/blob/main/vision/genesis_principles.md
>> [2]
>> https://www.ietf.org/about/administration/policies-procedures/conflict-interest/
>>
>> Le lun. 8 mai 2023 à 21:26, Tony Giorgio via Lightning-dev
>> <lightning-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> <mailto:lightning-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>> a écrit :
>>
>> Is there a better place to have public communication?
>> Unfortunately since one off topic email was sent here, it's been
>> a ghost town. It appears that there's many emails being held and
>> only one moderator that checks them once a week.
>>
>> Would hate to see this list die but wondering if there's a better
>> place for discussions?
>>
>> Tony
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> On Apr 29, 2023, 9:57 PM, niftynei < niftynei at gmail.com
>> <mailto:niftynei at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> When I joined the lightning community a few years ago, I was
>> relatively new to open source software and specification
>> work. Rusty really impressed on me on the importance of
>> holding conversations, as much as possible in public.
>>
>> Practically speaking, this encompasses IRC, this mailing
>> list, and github issues/PRs.
>>
>> The reason for this is twofold. It helps document the range
>> of options considered for technical decisions and it provides
>> an interface point for new participants to contribute to the
>> discussion.
>>
>> Given some recent mails that were posted to this list, now
>> seems like a good time to reiterate the importance and
>> preference of public communication whenever possible,
>> especially for specification or technical discussions.
>>
>>
>> ~ nifty
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lightning-dev mailing list
>> Lightning-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> <mailto:Lightning-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lightning-dev
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lightning-dev mailing list
> Lightning-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lightning-dev
--
Sophia-Antipolis, France
CV: https://www.peersm.com/CVAV.pdf
LinkedIn: https://fr.linkedin.com/in/aymeric-vitte-05855b26
GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms
A Universal Coin Swap system based on Bitcoin: https://gist.github.com/Ayms/029125db2583e1cf9c3209769eb2cdd7
A bitcoin NFT system: https://gist.github.com/Ayms/01dbfebf219965054b4a3beed1bfeba7
Bitcoin, Ethereum, smart contracts, lightning, sidechains, Defi, DApps, NFTs, DEX, DAO explained - Centralization vs Decentralization https://gist.github.com/Ayms/04b3084a14ee202e707b3faec57ed26e
Discover and Move your coins by yourself (browser version): https://peersm.com/wallet
Bitcoin transactions made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-transactions
torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live
node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor
Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.peersm.com
Peersm : http://www.peersm.com
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🗒️ Summary of this message: A warning to the Lightning community to avoid off-topic discussions, as it destroyed the Tor-talk mailing list, leading to a lack of discussion.
📝 Original message:
Lightning list, I really think that you should stop this mess and
reconcentrate on technical topics
The very same did destroy the Tor-talk mailing list
Based on false assumptions as we saw later
Reading bulls all the day, everybody escaped
Result: the Tor community can't discuss any longer
Don't do the same
Le 11/05/2023 à 19:48, alicexbt via Lightning-dev a écrit :
> Hi Antoine,
>
>> I can say missing an open-source engineering meeting or being
>> revoked a few Github permissions matters far less than the clear
>> affirmation and respect of the freedom of expression, the presumption
>> of innocence and due process in the Bitcoin common space, all
>> proportions conserved.
>
> This is not acceptable. I will fight with you. Never feel alone.
>
> /devfd0
> floppy disk guy
>
> Sent with Proton Mail <https://proton.me/>; secure email.
>
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Wednesday, May 10th, 2023 at 10:27 PM, Antoine Riard
> <antoine.riard at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Tony,
>>
>> > Is there a better place to havepubliccommunication? Unfortunately
>> since one off topic email was sent here, it's been a ghost town. It
>> appears that there's many emails being held and only one moderator
>> that checks them once a week.
>>
>> As I think you're referring to my post of March 21th and as the
>> author of this post, I'll politely refuse the qualification of
>> "off-topic". I had and I still have the concerns of "frivolous legal
>> claims" being used between bitcoin developers/organizations provoking
>> a distortion of the neutrality of the development and a chilling
>> effect of the technical discussions (i.e code we compile and spec we
>> implement). For those reasons, it was my legal right and moral duty
>> to inform the community of what is happening between Chaincode and
>> myself. And here I'm following the recommendation of one of the
>> moderators of the Lightning mailing list himself "If this worries you
>> too, let's make sure we keep each other honest, OK?" [0].
>>
>> When you think a group of people with open-source responsibilities
>> are in a situation of conflict of interests or "moral hazards", or
>> even the appearance of them, you have the right to expose the
>> wrongdoing, including the _proportional_ revelation of private
>> elements. People have done the "free choice" to conduct a career in
>> open-source, for some even declaring in some context to maintain
>> integrity and accept their actions to be submitted to external
>> accountability [1]. While the exposure of private elements of public
>> personalities might break common courtesy, it's a morally valid
>> practice if you're familiar with the public institutions of US and
>> Europe, and I think this practice has found validity in the history
>> of open-source commons or IETF's protocol development [1].
>>
>> Beyond, the Bitcoin and Lightning development communication channels
>> constitute a public forum, where by nature the participants are
>> exchanging ideas and defending competing interests. In consequence,
>> the participants' rights and capabilities to contribute and speak
>> their minds in those communication channels should be protected.
>> Those communication channels are not your usual corporate workplace,
>> and in case of conflicting principles, the maintainers of those
>> communication channels should ensure a balance of rights and a
>> proportionality in any restraining measure.
>>
>> And this new post is not to exonerate myself of any legal
>> responsibility for personal matters that could be recognized as the
>> outcome of a judicial process, respective of both rights of the
>> accusation and rights of the defense. Rather to enlighten the Bitcoin
>> community that the formal separation between private matters and
>> open-source responsibilities, and the adequate check-and-balances to
>> guarantee this separation is somehow what are the underlying stakes
>> for this feud between Chaincode and myself, from my perspective. I
>> can say missing an open-source engineering meeting or being revoked a
>> few Github permissions matters far less than the clear affirmation
>> and respect of the freedom of expression, the presumption of
>> innocence and due process in the Bitcoin common space, all
>> proportions conserved.
>>
>> I don't blame any party involved in this issue, nor assign "bad
>> intentions''. One position is really a function of your life
>> experiences, knowledge of the legal and cultural framework and access
>> to the factual elements. As all human conflicts it is not binary
>> rather "grey". People can be top executives at a billion-dollar
>> company, having successful ventures with hundreds of folks under
>> management, or have a lot of responsibilities for their relative
>> young age, and still disagree on the set of legal and moral
>> principles to apply in the present case.
>>
>> Finally, thanks to the Bitcoin friends who have reached out to call
>> for level-headedness and cool-mindness in the public discussion of
>> this complex topic. Like I said to them, in the lack of more
>> suspected wrongdoing from the other side, I won't communicate further
>> on this subject on the Bitcoin and Lightning technical channels.
>> However I still firmly believe the discussion on the principles,
>> abstract in the maximum from its private elements, should still be
>> pursued on other channels. Independently, there is a legal channel
>> opened between Chaincode and myself and good progress is made to find
>> a serene and long-standing resolution to this issue.
>>
>> Best,
>> Antoine
>>
>> [0]
>> https://rusty-lightning.medium.com/the-corrosion-of-ethics-in-cryptocurrencies-f7ba77e9dfc3
>> [1]
>> https://github.com/btrustteam/board-book/blob/main/vision/genesis_principles.md
>> [2]
>> https://www.ietf.org/about/administration/policies-procedures/conflict-interest/
>>
>> Le lun. 8 mai 2023 à 21:26, Tony Giorgio via Lightning-dev
>> <lightning-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> <mailto:lightning-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>> a écrit :
>>
>> Is there a better place to have public communication?
>> Unfortunately since one off topic email was sent here, it's been
>> a ghost town. It appears that there's many emails being held and
>> only one moderator that checks them once a week.
>>
>> Would hate to see this list die but wondering if there's a better
>> place for discussions?
>>
>> Tony
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> On Apr 29, 2023, 9:57 PM, niftynei < niftynei at gmail.com
>> <mailto:niftynei at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> When I joined the lightning community a few years ago, I was
>> relatively new to open source software and specification
>> work. Rusty really impressed on me on the importance of
>> holding conversations, as much as possible in public.
>>
>> Practically speaking, this encompasses IRC, this mailing
>> list, and github issues/PRs.
>>
>> The reason for this is twofold. It helps document the range
>> of options considered for technical decisions and it provides
>> an interface point for new participants to contribute to the
>> discussion.
>>
>> Given some recent mails that were posted to this list, now
>> seems like a good time to reiterate the importance and
>> preference of public communication whenever possible,
>> especially for specification or technical discussions.
>>
>>
>> ~ nifty
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lightning-dev mailing list
>> Lightning-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> <mailto:Lightning-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lightning-dev
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lightning-dev mailing list
> Lightning-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lightning-dev
--
Sophia-Antipolis, France
CV: https://www.peersm.com/CVAV.pdf
LinkedIn: https://fr.linkedin.com/in/aymeric-vitte-05855b26
GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms
A Universal Coin Swap system based on Bitcoin: https://gist.github.com/Ayms/029125db2583e1cf9c3209769eb2cdd7
A bitcoin NFT system: https://gist.github.com/Ayms/01dbfebf219965054b4a3beed1bfeba7
Bitcoin, Ethereum, smart contracts, lightning, sidechains, Defi, DApps, NFTs, DEX, DAO explained - Centralization vs Decentralization https://gist.github.com/Ayms/04b3084a14ee202e707b3faec57ed26e
Discover and Move your coins by yourself (browser version): https://peersm.com/wallet
Bitcoin transactions made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-transactions
torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live
node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor
Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.peersm.com
Peersm : http://www.peersm.com
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