Greg Sanders [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2022-10-20 📝 Original message:> If it were growing in ...
📅 Original date posted:2022-10-20
📝 Original message:> If it were growing in line with lightning capacity in BTC, per
bitcoinvisuals.com/ln-capacity; then 15% now would have grown from
perhaps 4% in May 2021, so perhaps 8% per year. With linear growth,
getting from 15% to 80% would then be about 8 years.
I'd caution against any metrics-based approach like this, unless it's
simply used for ballparking potential adoption curves to set a a timeframe
people can live with.
A large number of coins/users sit on custodial rails and this would
essentially encumber protocol developers to those KYC/AML institutions. If
Binance decides to never support Lightning in favor of BNC-wrapped BTC,
should this be an issue at all for reasoning about a path forward?
Hoping to be wrong,
Greg
On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 3:59 PM Anthony Towns via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 02:37:53PM +0200, Sergej Kotliar via bitcoin-dev
> wrote:
> > > If someone's going to systematically exploit your store via this
> > > mechanism, it seems like they'd just find a single wallet with a good
> > > UX for opt-in RBF and lowballing fees, and go to town -- not something
> > > where opt-in rbf vs fullrbf policies make any difference at all?
> > Sort of. But yes once this starts being abused systemically we will have
> to
> > do something else w RBF payments, such as crediting the amount in BTC to
> a
> > custodial account. But this option isn't available to your normal payment
> > processor type business.
>
> So, what I'm hearing is:
>
> * lightning works great, but is still pretty small
> * zeroconf works great for txs that opt-out of RBF
> * opt-in RBF is a pain for two reasons:
> - people don't like that it's not treated as zeroconf
> - the risk of fiat/BTC exchange rate changes between
> now and when the tx actually confirms is worrying
> even if it hasn't caused real problems yet
>
> (Please correct me if that's too far wrong)
>
> Maybe it would be productive to explore this opt-in RBF part a bit
> more? ie, see if "we" can come up with better answers to some question
> along the lines of:
>
> "how can we make on-chain payments for goods priced in fiat work well
> for payees that opt-in to RBF?"
>
> That seems like the sort of thing that's better solved by a collaboration
> between wallet devs and merchant devs (and protocol devs?), rather than
> just one or the other?
>
> Is that something that we could talk about here? Or maybe it's better
> done via an optech workgroup or something?
>
> If "we'll credit your account in BTC, then work out the USD coversion
> and deduct that for your purchase, then you can do whatever you like
> with any remaining BTC from your on-chain payment" is the idea, maybe we
> should just roll with that design, but make it more decentralised: have
> the initial payment setup a lightning channel between the customer and
> the merchant with the BTC (so it's not custodial), but do some magic to
> allow USD amounts to be transferred over it (Taro? something oracle based
> so that both parties are confident a fair exchange rate will be used?).
>
> Maybe that particular idea is naive, but having an actual problem to
> solve seems more constructive than just saying "we want rbf" "but we
> want zeroconf" all the time?
>
> (Ideally the lightning channels above would be dual funded so they could
> be used for routing more generally; but then dual funded channels are
> one of the things that get broken by lack of full rbf)
>
> > > I thought the "normal" avenue for fooling non-RBF zeroconf was to
> create
> > > two conflicting txs in advance, one paying the merchant, one paying
> > > yourself, connect to many peers, relay the one paying the merchant to
> > > the merchant, and the other to everyone else.
> > > I'm just basing this off Peter Todd's stuff from years ago:
> > >
> https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/40ejy8/peter_todd_with_my_doublespendpy_tool_with/cytlhh0/
> > >
> https://github.com/petertodd/replace-by-fee-tools/blob/master/doublespend.py
> > Yeah, I know the list still rehashes a single incident from 10 years ago
> to
> > declare the entire practice as unsafe, and ignores real-world data that
> of
> > the last million transactions we had zero cases of this successfully
> > abusing us.
>
> I mean, the avenue above isn't easy to exploit -- you have to identify
> the merchant's node so that they get the bad tx, and you have to connect
> to many peers so that your preferred tx propogates to miners first --
> and probably more importantly, it's relatively easy to detect -- if the
> merchant has a few passive nodes that the attacker doesn't know about
> it, and uses those to watch for attempted doublespends while it tries
> to ensure the real tx has propogated widely. So it doesn't surprise me
> at all that it's not often attempted, and even less often successful.
>
> > > > Currently Lightning is somewhere around 15% of our total bitcoin
> > > > payments.
> > > So, based on last year's numbers, presumably that makes your bitcoin
> > > payments break down as something like:
> > > 5% txs are on-chain and seem shady and are excluded from zeroconf
> > > 15% txs are lightning
> > > 20% txs are on-chain but signal rbf and are excluded from zeroconf
> > > 60% txs are on-chain and seem fine for zeroconf
> > Numbers are right. Shady is too strong a word,
>
> Heh, fair enough.
>
> So the above suggests 25% of payments already get a sub-par experience,
> compared to what you'd like them to have (which sucks, but if you're
> trying to reinvent both money and payments, maybe isn't surprising). And
> going full rbf would bump that from 25% to 85%, which would be pretty
> terrible.
>
> > RBF is a strictly worse UX as proven by anyone
> > accepting bitcoin payments at scale.
>
> So let's make it better? Building bitcoin businesses on the lie that
> unconfirmed txs are safe and won't be replaced is going to bite us
> eventually; focussing on trying to push that back indefinitely is just
> going to make everyone less prepared when it eventually happens.
>
> > > > For me
> > > > personally it would be an easier discussion to have when Lightning
> is at
> > > > 80%+ of all bitcoin transactions.
> > > Can you extrapolate from the numbers you've seen to estimate when that
> > > might be, given current trends?
> > Not sure, it might be exponential growth, and the next 60% of Lightning
> > growth happen faster than the first 15%. Hard to tell. But we're likely
> > talking years here..
>
> Okay? Two years is very different from 50 years, and at the moment there's
> not really any data, so people are just going to go with their gut...
>
> If it were growing in line with lightning capacity in BTC, per
> bitcoinvisuals.com/ln-capacity; then 15% now would have grown from
> perhaps 4% in May 2021, so perhaps 8% per year. With linear growth,
> getting from 15% to 80% would then be about 8 years.
>
> Presumably that's a laughably terrible model, of course. But if we had
> some actual numbers where we can watch the progress, it might be a lot
> easier to be patient about waiting for lightning adoption to hit 80%
> or whatever, and focus on productive things in the meantime?
>
> Cheers,
> aj
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
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📝 Original message:> If it were growing in line with lightning capacity in BTC, per
bitcoinvisuals.com/ln-capacity; then 15% now would have grown from
perhaps 4% in May 2021, so perhaps 8% per year. With linear growth,
getting from 15% to 80% would then be about 8 years.
I'd caution against any metrics-based approach like this, unless it's
simply used for ballparking potential adoption curves to set a a timeframe
people can live with.
A large number of coins/users sit on custodial rails and this would
essentially encumber protocol developers to those KYC/AML institutions. If
Binance decides to never support Lightning in favor of BNC-wrapped BTC,
should this be an issue at all for reasoning about a path forward?
Hoping to be wrong,
Greg
On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 3:59 PM Anthony Towns via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 02:37:53PM +0200, Sergej Kotliar via bitcoin-dev
> wrote:
> > > If someone's going to systematically exploit your store via this
> > > mechanism, it seems like they'd just find a single wallet with a good
> > > UX for opt-in RBF and lowballing fees, and go to town -- not something
> > > where opt-in rbf vs fullrbf policies make any difference at all?
> > Sort of. But yes once this starts being abused systemically we will have
> to
> > do something else w RBF payments, such as crediting the amount in BTC to
> a
> > custodial account. But this option isn't available to your normal payment
> > processor type business.
>
> So, what I'm hearing is:
>
> * lightning works great, but is still pretty small
> * zeroconf works great for txs that opt-out of RBF
> * opt-in RBF is a pain for two reasons:
> - people don't like that it's not treated as zeroconf
> - the risk of fiat/BTC exchange rate changes between
> now and when the tx actually confirms is worrying
> even if it hasn't caused real problems yet
>
> (Please correct me if that's too far wrong)
>
> Maybe it would be productive to explore this opt-in RBF part a bit
> more? ie, see if "we" can come up with better answers to some question
> along the lines of:
>
> "how can we make on-chain payments for goods priced in fiat work well
> for payees that opt-in to RBF?"
>
> That seems like the sort of thing that's better solved by a collaboration
> between wallet devs and merchant devs (and protocol devs?), rather than
> just one or the other?
>
> Is that something that we could talk about here? Or maybe it's better
> done via an optech workgroup or something?
>
> If "we'll credit your account in BTC, then work out the USD coversion
> and deduct that for your purchase, then you can do whatever you like
> with any remaining BTC from your on-chain payment" is the idea, maybe we
> should just roll with that design, but make it more decentralised: have
> the initial payment setup a lightning channel between the customer and
> the merchant with the BTC (so it's not custodial), but do some magic to
> allow USD amounts to be transferred over it (Taro? something oracle based
> so that both parties are confident a fair exchange rate will be used?).
>
> Maybe that particular idea is naive, but having an actual problem to
> solve seems more constructive than just saying "we want rbf" "but we
> want zeroconf" all the time?
>
> (Ideally the lightning channels above would be dual funded so they could
> be used for routing more generally; but then dual funded channels are
> one of the things that get broken by lack of full rbf)
>
> > > I thought the "normal" avenue for fooling non-RBF zeroconf was to
> create
> > > two conflicting txs in advance, one paying the merchant, one paying
> > > yourself, connect to many peers, relay the one paying the merchant to
> > > the merchant, and the other to everyone else.
> > > I'm just basing this off Peter Todd's stuff from years ago:
> > >
> https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/40ejy8/peter_todd_with_my_doublespendpy_tool_with/cytlhh0/
> > >
> https://github.com/petertodd/replace-by-fee-tools/blob/master/doublespend.py
> > Yeah, I know the list still rehashes a single incident from 10 years ago
> to
> > declare the entire practice as unsafe, and ignores real-world data that
> of
> > the last million transactions we had zero cases of this successfully
> > abusing us.
>
> I mean, the avenue above isn't easy to exploit -- you have to identify
> the merchant's node so that they get the bad tx, and you have to connect
> to many peers so that your preferred tx propogates to miners first --
> and probably more importantly, it's relatively easy to detect -- if the
> merchant has a few passive nodes that the attacker doesn't know about
> it, and uses those to watch for attempted doublespends while it tries
> to ensure the real tx has propogated widely. So it doesn't surprise me
> at all that it's not often attempted, and even less often successful.
>
> > > > Currently Lightning is somewhere around 15% of our total bitcoin
> > > > payments.
> > > So, based on last year's numbers, presumably that makes your bitcoin
> > > payments break down as something like:
> > > 5% txs are on-chain and seem shady and are excluded from zeroconf
> > > 15% txs are lightning
> > > 20% txs are on-chain but signal rbf and are excluded from zeroconf
> > > 60% txs are on-chain and seem fine for zeroconf
> > Numbers are right. Shady is too strong a word,
>
> Heh, fair enough.
>
> So the above suggests 25% of payments already get a sub-par experience,
> compared to what you'd like them to have (which sucks, but if you're
> trying to reinvent both money and payments, maybe isn't surprising). And
> going full rbf would bump that from 25% to 85%, which would be pretty
> terrible.
>
> > RBF is a strictly worse UX as proven by anyone
> > accepting bitcoin payments at scale.
>
> So let's make it better? Building bitcoin businesses on the lie that
> unconfirmed txs are safe and won't be replaced is going to bite us
> eventually; focussing on trying to push that back indefinitely is just
> going to make everyone less prepared when it eventually happens.
>
> > > > For me
> > > > personally it would be an easier discussion to have when Lightning
> is at
> > > > 80%+ of all bitcoin transactions.
> > > Can you extrapolate from the numbers you've seen to estimate when that
> > > might be, given current trends?
> > Not sure, it might be exponential growth, and the next 60% of Lightning
> > growth happen faster than the first 15%. Hard to tell. But we're likely
> > talking years here..
>
> Okay? Two years is very different from 50 years, and at the moment there's
> not really any data, so people are just going to go with their gut...
>
> If it were growing in line with lightning capacity in BTC, per
> bitcoinvisuals.com/ln-capacity; then 15% now would have grown from
> perhaps 4% in May 2021, so perhaps 8% per year. With linear growth,
> getting from 15% to 80% would then be about 8 years.
>
> Presumably that's a laughably terrible model, of course. But if we had
> some actual numbers where we can watch the progress, it might be a lot
> easier to be patient about waiting for lightning adoption to hit 80%
> or whatever, and focus on productive things in the meantime?
>
> Cheers,
> aj
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
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