SaberhagenTheNameless on Nostr: >"appears in two transactions. He receives money in this transaction" You seem to be ...
>"appears in two transactions. He receives money in this transaction"
You seem to be confusing reciever and sender privacy again. One is an input the other is an output. It doesn't appear as another output again.
>"It is not zero knowledge"
Yes it is. Potential receivers can literally be any Monero user that has ever existed. All you know is that the receiver is a Monero user - that's all.
>"That doesn't imply that users use custodial wallets for anything other than zaps. I use a custodian for zaps and then withdraw them to my self custody wallet whenever they grow to be worth about $20."
Are zaps not lightning transactions? Value of the transactions are irrelevant.
>"Of the top 10, half are self custodial (Acinq, C=, and 3 LNBigs)...It just means that's a place where lots of money flows into and out of."
The main point is the reduced privacy they provide from your ideal presentation of lightning (running your own node, etc.), not if they are custodial or not. Everything flowing through these large node isn't ideal for privacy and reduces the benefits of onion-routing of Lightning,
>"Okay, I did, and here are the results: https://gist.github.com/supertestnet/5bceb60d9c691da744a55dad3f60e65e";
Interesting chart. I also have a similar one I made awhile back to see for myself. I noticed you don't have Strike or Chivo included (some of the largest custodial lightning wallets in downloads - 1,000,000+ each). You also only have two types of wallets, but I would include another category of non-custodial LSP wallets like Phoenix which reduces user privacy. Blinded paths are also not widely used yet and not default for most.
Some of the wallets included that have multiple kinds are hard to figure out, but considering Bitcoin only has 60,000 nodes and there being roughly 80-130 million total Bitcoiners in the world, it's pretty safe to assume the vast majority aren't running their own Lightning nodes. I'm sure the ratio is similar for those wallets.
>"I agree, I'm just saying that if you have to do that for good privacy anyway, then do the thing that gets you better privacy. Run a lightning node, not a monero node."
Far more Lightning and Monero users don't run their own node and likely never will. So when it comes to those users it's probably good to direct them to use Monero. If you're going to run your own node and do everything correctly then yea I at least see your argument in that case, pros and cons, but imo it's still debatable especially if you're going through large LN nodes in your hops that reduce the benefits of onion-routing.
>"This is because in LN the sender and the recipient are actually encrypted so that the remote node cannot see them"
Not sure this applies to custodial LN, and pretty sure LN receive privacy is notorious for being bad. I know blinded paths exist, but aren't widely used yet. Not sure how popular multi-path payments are yet either.
>"Good point, I didn't think of that. Makes me want to get more statistics."
Yea in the future ecash tokens will not reveal amounts, but that isn't true at the moment. I've heard about Calle saying he is going to eventually implement "blinded amounts" in addition to blinded signatures which would solve this particular problem. Don't get me wrong I think ecash is cool because it can do some neat things that Monero can't, but it has it's own downsides obviously. Ecash (and even L2s) aren't necessarily unique to Bitcoin either. You can build ecash on Monero now somewhat trivially (and a Bitcoiner is actually currently doing that) and L2s will soon be possible with FMCP.
>"Exchanges like Kucoin and Huobi Global continue to list monero and do millions of dollars in volume in XMR trading pairs....everyone in the monero community that I've talked to sings the praises of DNMs even though almost all of them take custody of user funds."
In comparison to Bitcoin this is nothing even accounting for Mcap and tx volume of each. The largest exchanges like Binance have already delisted Monero.
DNM thing is true, good point, but I doubt anyone uses those as their personal wallets theyre actually using. They're usually only used to deposit/withdraw funds. Even if Lightning was used there would have to be a similar setup for this. Some use multisig, but not as common.
You seem to be confusing reciever and sender privacy again. One is an input the other is an output. It doesn't appear as another output again.
>"It is not zero knowledge"
Yes it is. Potential receivers can literally be any Monero user that has ever existed. All you know is that the receiver is a Monero user - that's all.
>"That doesn't imply that users use custodial wallets for anything other than zaps. I use a custodian for zaps and then withdraw them to my self custody wallet whenever they grow to be worth about $20."
Are zaps not lightning transactions? Value of the transactions are irrelevant.
>"Of the top 10, half are self custodial (Acinq, C=, and 3 LNBigs)...It just means that's a place where lots of money flows into and out of."
The main point is the reduced privacy they provide from your ideal presentation of lightning (running your own node, etc.), not if they are custodial or not. Everything flowing through these large node isn't ideal for privacy and reduces the benefits of onion-routing of Lightning,
>"Okay, I did, and here are the results: https://gist.github.com/supertestnet/5bceb60d9c691da744a55dad3f60e65e";
Interesting chart. I also have a similar one I made awhile back to see for myself. I noticed you don't have Strike or Chivo included (some of the largest custodial lightning wallets in downloads - 1,000,000+ each). You also only have two types of wallets, but I would include another category of non-custodial LSP wallets like Phoenix which reduces user privacy. Blinded paths are also not widely used yet and not default for most.
Some of the wallets included that have multiple kinds are hard to figure out, but considering Bitcoin only has 60,000 nodes and there being roughly 80-130 million total Bitcoiners in the world, it's pretty safe to assume the vast majority aren't running their own Lightning nodes. I'm sure the ratio is similar for those wallets.
>"I agree, I'm just saying that if you have to do that for good privacy anyway, then do the thing that gets you better privacy. Run a lightning node, not a monero node."
Far more Lightning and Monero users don't run their own node and likely never will. So when it comes to those users it's probably good to direct them to use Monero. If you're going to run your own node and do everything correctly then yea I at least see your argument in that case, pros and cons, but imo it's still debatable especially if you're going through large LN nodes in your hops that reduce the benefits of onion-routing.
>"This is because in LN the sender and the recipient are actually encrypted so that the remote node cannot see them"
Not sure this applies to custodial LN, and pretty sure LN receive privacy is notorious for being bad. I know blinded paths exist, but aren't widely used yet. Not sure how popular multi-path payments are yet either.
>"Good point, I didn't think of that. Makes me want to get more statistics."
Yea in the future ecash tokens will not reveal amounts, but that isn't true at the moment. I've heard about Calle saying he is going to eventually implement "blinded amounts" in addition to blinded signatures which would solve this particular problem. Don't get me wrong I think ecash is cool because it can do some neat things that Monero can't, but it has it's own downsides obviously. Ecash (and even L2s) aren't necessarily unique to Bitcoin either. You can build ecash on Monero now somewhat trivially (and a Bitcoiner is actually currently doing that) and L2s will soon be possible with FMCP.
>"Exchanges like Kucoin and Huobi Global continue to list monero and do millions of dollars in volume in XMR trading pairs....everyone in the monero community that I've talked to sings the praises of DNMs even though almost all of them take custody of user funds."
In comparison to Bitcoin this is nothing even accounting for Mcap and tx volume of each. The largest exchanges like Binance have already delisted Monero.
DNM thing is true, good point, but I doubt anyone uses those as their personal wallets theyre actually using. They're usually only used to deposit/withdraw funds. Even if Lightning was used there would have to be a similar setup for this. Some use multisig, but not as common.