Christopher Jeffrey [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: đź“… Original date posted:2017-05-08 đź“ť Original message:Johnson, Yeah, I do still ...
đź“… Original date posted:2017-05-08
đź“ť Original message:Johnson,
Yeah, I do still see the issue. I think there are still some reasonable
ways to mitigate it.
I've started revising the extension block specification/code to coexist
with mainchain segwit. I think the benefit of this is that we can
require exiting outputs to only be witness programs. Presumably segwit
wallets will be more likely to be aware of a new output maturity rule
(I've opened a PR[1] which describes this in greater detail). I think
this probably reduces the likelihood of the legacy wallet issue,
assuming most segwit-supporting wallets would implement this rule before
the activation of segwit.
What's your opinion on whether this would have a great enough effect to
prevent the legacy wallet issue? I think switching to witness programs
only may be a good balance between fungibility and backward-compat,
probably better all around than creating a whole new
addr-type/wit-program just for exits.
[1] https://github.com/tothemoon-org/extension-blocks/pull/16
On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 06:14:36PM +0800, Johnson Lau wrote:
>
> > On 6 Apr 2017, at 01:43, Christopher Jeffrey <chjj at purse.io> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> This hits the biggest question I asked in my January post: do you want
> >> to allow direct exit payment to legacy addresses? As a block reorg
> >> will almost guarantee changing txid of the resolution tx, that will
> >> permanently invalidate all the child txs based on the resolution tx.
> >> This is a significant change to the current tx model. To fix this, you
> >> need to make exit outputs unspendable for up to 100 blocks. Doing
> >> this, however, will make legacy wallet users very confused as they do
> >> not anticipate funding being locked up for a long period of time. So
> >> you can’t let the money sent back to a legacy address directly, but
> >> sent to a new format address that only recognized by new wallet, which
> >> understands the lock up requirement. This way, however, introduces
> >> friction and some fungibility issues, and I’d expect people using
> >> cross chain atomic swap to exchange bitcoin and xbitcoin
> >
> > Yes, this issue is probably the biggest edge case in the proposal.
> >
> > I think there's two possible solutions:
> >
> > First solution:
> >
> > Like you said, add a maturity requirement for exiting outputs. Likely
> > lower than coinbase's 100 block requirement. To solve the issue of
> > non-upgraded wallets not being aware of this rule and spending early,
> > have upgraded mempool implementations accept/relay txs that contain
> > early spends of exits, but not mine them until they are mature. This way
> > non-upgraded wallets do not end up broadcasting transactions that are
> > considered invalid to the rest of the network.
>
> This won’t solve the problem. Think about the following conversation:
>
> Alice (not upgraded): Please pay 1 BTC to my address 1ALicExyz
> Bob (upgraded): ok, paid, please check
>
> 10 minutes later
>
> Alice: received and confirmed, thanks!
>
> 5 minutes later:
>
> Carol (not upgraded): Please pay 0.5BTC to my address 3CaroLXXX
> Alice: paid, please check
>
> 1 hour later:
>
> Carol: it’s not confirmed. Have you paid enough fees?
> Alice: ok, I’ll RBF/CPFP it
>
> 2 hours later:
>
> Carol: it’s still not confirmed.
> Alice: I have already paid double fees. Maybe the network is congested and I need to pay more…..
>
> Repeat until the lock up period ends.
>
> So this so-called “softfork” actually made non-upgraded wallet totally unusable. If failed to meet the very important requirement of a softfork: backward compatibility
>
> More discussion:
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-April/013985.html <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-April/013985.html>;
>
>
> >
> > Depending on how wallets handle reorgs, a non-upgraded wallet may put
> > reorg'd spend chains from exits back into an unconfirmed state, when in
> > reality they should probably delete them or mark them conflicted in some
> > way. This may be an acceptable compromise as the wallet will still see
> > the funds as unconfirmed when they really don't exist anymore, but maybe
> > unconfirmed is good enough. Users are pretty used to dropping
> > non-confirming txs from their wallet, and this is much better than
> > legacy wallets seeing there funds as confirmed when they could be
> > permanently reorged out at any moment.
> >
> > Second solution:
> >
> > Move all exiting outputs to the coinbase. This will enforce a 100 block
> > maturity requirement and non-upgraded wallets will be aware of this.
>
> This is also unacceptable.
>
> When someone says "Please pay 1 BTC to my address 1ALicExyz”, no one anticipates being paid by a coinbase output. Some exchanges like btc-e explicitly reject coinbase payment.
>
> Such deterioration in user experience is unacceptable. It basically forces everyone to upgrade, i.e. a hardfork with soft fork’s skin
>
>
>
> >
> > The first solution might require more implementation, but allows more
> > flexibility with the maturity requirement. The second solution is
> > possibly simpler, but sticks to a hard 100 block limit.
> >
> >> 1. Is it acceptable to have massive txid malleability and transaction
> >> chain invalidation for every natural happening reorg? Yes: the
> >> current spec is ok; No: next question (I’d say no)
> >
> > Answered above.
> >
> >> 2. Is locking up exit outputs the best way to deal with the problem?
> >> (I tried really hard to find a better solution but failed)
> >
> > You've probably thought about this more than anyone, so I'd say yes, it
> > may be the only way. Painful, but necessary.
> >
> >> 3. How long the lock-up period should be? Answer could be anywhere
> >> from 1 to 100
> >
> > I imagine having something lower than 100 would be preferable to users,
> > maybe somewhere in the 5 to 15 range. A 15 block reorg on mainnet is
> > seriously unlikely unless something strange is happening. A 5 block
> > reorg is still pretty unlikely, but possible. The coinbase solution only
> > allows for 100 blocks though.
> >
> >> 4. With a lock-up period, should it allow direct exit to legacy
> >> address? (I think it’s ok if the lock-up is short, like 1-2 block. But
> >> is that safe enough?)
> >
> > I think so. Adding a kind of special address probably creates more
> > issues than it solves.
>
>
> As I explained above, no legacy wallet would anticipate a lock up. If you want to make a softfork, all burden of incompatibility must be taken by the upgraded system. Only allow exit to a new address guarantees that only upgraded wallet will see the locked-up tx:
>
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-January/013490.html <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-January/013490.html>;
> >
> >> 5. Due to the fungibility issues, it may need a new name for the
> >> tokens in the ext-block
> >
> > I suppose the market will decide whether that's the case.
> >
> > It's worth noting, if segwit is not activated on the mainchain, it
> > creates a much bigger incentive to use the extension block, and
> > potentially ensures that users will have less of a reason to exit.
> >
>
> I think it’s unacceptable if malleability is not fixed in main chain, for 3 reasons:
>
> 1. a solution is *already* available and tested for > 1 year.
>
> 2. the deactivation design (which I think is an interesting idea) makes the ext block unsuitable for long-term storage of value.
>
> 3. LN over main chain allows instant exchange of main coin and xcoin without going through the ugly 2-way-peg process.
>
>
>
--
Christopher Jeffrey (JJ) <chjjeffrey at gmail.com>
CTO & Bitcoin Menace, purse.io
https://github.com/chjj
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 488 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20170508/6eb88054/attachment-0001.sig>;
đź“ť Original message:Johnson,
Yeah, I do still see the issue. I think there are still some reasonable
ways to mitigate it.
I've started revising the extension block specification/code to coexist
with mainchain segwit. I think the benefit of this is that we can
require exiting outputs to only be witness programs. Presumably segwit
wallets will be more likely to be aware of a new output maturity rule
(I've opened a PR[1] which describes this in greater detail). I think
this probably reduces the likelihood of the legacy wallet issue,
assuming most segwit-supporting wallets would implement this rule before
the activation of segwit.
What's your opinion on whether this would have a great enough effect to
prevent the legacy wallet issue? I think switching to witness programs
only may be a good balance between fungibility and backward-compat,
probably better all around than creating a whole new
addr-type/wit-program just for exits.
[1] https://github.com/tothemoon-org/extension-blocks/pull/16
On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 06:14:36PM +0800, Johnson Lau wrote:
>
> > On 6 Apr 2017, at 01:43, Christopher Jeffrey <chjj at purse.io> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> This hits the biggest question I asked in my January post: do you want
> >> to allow direct exit payment to legacy addresses? As a block reorg
> >> will almost guarantee changing txid of the resolution tx, that will
> >> permanently invalidate all the child txs based on the resolution tx.
> >> This is a significant change to the current tx model. To fix this, you
> >> need to make exit outputs unspendable for up to 100 blocks. Doing
> >> this, however, will make legacy wallet users very confused as they do
> >> not anticipate funding being locked up for a long period of time. So
> >> you can’t let the money sent back to a legacy address directly, but
> >> sent to a new format address that only recognized by new wallet, which
> >> understands the lock up requirement. This way, however, introduces
> >> friction and some fungibility issues, and I’d expect people using
> >> cross chain atomic swap to exchange bitcoin and xbitcoin
> >
> > Yes, this issue is probably the biggest edge case in the proposal.
> >
> > I think there's two possible solutions:
> >
> > First solution:
> >
> > Like you said, add a maturity requirement for exiting outputs. Likely
> > lower than coinbase's 100 block requirement. To solve the issue of
> > non-upgraded wallets not being aware of this rule and spending early,
> > have upgraded mempool implementations accept/relay txs that contain
> > early spends of exits, but not mine them until they are mature. This way
> > non-upgraded wallets do not end up broadcasting transactions that are
> > considered invalid to the rest of the network.
>
> This won’t solve the problem. Think about the following conversation:
>
> Alice (not upgraded): Please pay 1 BTC to my address 1ALicExyz
> Bob (upgraded): ok, paid, please check
>
> 10 minutes later
>
> Alice: received and confirmed, thanks!
>
> 5 minutes later:
>
> Carol (not upgraded): Please pay 0.5BTC to my address 3CaroLXXX
> Alice: paid, please check
>
> 1 hour later:
>
> Carol: it’s not confirmed. Have you paid enough fees?
> Alice: ok, I’ll RBF/CPFP it
>
> 2 hours later:
>
> Carol: it’s still not confirmed.
> Alice: I have already paid double fees. Maybe the network is congested and I need to pay more…..
>
> Repeat until the lock up period ends.
>
> So this so-called “softfork” actually made non-upgraded wallet totally unusable. If failed to meet the very important requirement of a softfork: backward compatibility
>
> More discussion:
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-April/013985.html <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-April/013985.html>;
>
>
> >
> > Depending on how wallets handle reorgs, a non-upgraded wallet may put
> > reorg'd spend chains from exits back into an unconfirmed state, when in
> > reality they should probably delete them or mark them conflicted in some
> > way. This may be an acceptable compromise as the wallet will still see
> > the funds as unconfirmed when they really don't exist anymore, but maybe
> > unconfirmed is good enough. Users are pretty used to dropping
> > non-confirming txs from their wallet, and this is much better than
> > legacy wallets seeing there funds as confirmed when they could be
> > permanently reorged out at any moment.
> >
> > Second solution:
> >
> > Move all exiting outputs to the coinbase. This will enforce a 100 block
> > maturity requirement and non-upgraded wallets will be aware of this.
>
> This is also unacceptable.
>
> When someone says "Please pay 1 BTC to my address 1ALicExyz”, no one anticipates being paid by a coinbase output. Some exchanges like btc-e explicitly reject coinbase payment.
>
> Such deterioration in user experience is unacceptable. It basically forces everyone to upgrade, i.e. a hardfork with soft fork’s skin
>
>
>
> >
> > The first solution might require more implementation, but allows more
> > flexibility with the maturity requirement. The second solution is
> > possibly simpler, but sticks to a hard 100 block limit.
> >
> >> 1. Is it acceptable to have massive txid malleability and transaction
> >> chain invalidation for every natural happening reorg? Yes: the
> >> current spec is ok; No: next question (I’d say no)
> >
> > Answered above.
> >
> >> 2. Is locking up exit outputs the best way to deal with the problem?
> >> (I tried really hard to find a better solution but failed)
> >
> > You've probably thought about this more than anyone, so I'd say yes, it
> > may be the only way. Painful, but necessary.
> >
> >> 3. How long the lock-up period should be? Answer could be anywhere
> >> from 1 to 100
> >
> > I imagine having something lower than 100 would be preferable to users,
> > maybe somewhere in the 5 to 15 range. A 15 block reorg on mainnet is
> > seriously unlikely unless something strange is happening. A 5 block
> > reorg is still pretty unlikely, but possible. The coinbase solution only
> > allows for 100 blocks though.
> >
> >> 4. With a lock-up period, should it allow direct exit to legacy
> >> address? (I think it’s ok if the lock-up is short, like 1-2 block. But
> >> is that safe enough?)
> >
> > I think so. Adding a kind of special address probably creates more
> > issues than it solves.
>
>
> As I explained above, no legacy wallet would anticipate a lock up. If you want to make a softfork, all burden of incompatibility must be taken by the upgraded system. Only allow exit to a new address guarantees that only upgraded wallet will see the locked-up tx:
>
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-January/013490.html <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-January/013490.html>;
> >
> >> 5. Due to the fungibility issues, it may need a new name for the
> >> tokens in the ext-block
> >
> > I suppose the market will decide whether that's the case.
> >
> > It's worth noting, if segwit is not activated on the mainchain, it
> > creates a much bigger incentive to use the extension block, and
> > potentially ensures that users will have less of a reason to exit.
> >
>
> I think it’s unacceptable if malleability is not fixed in main chain, for 3 reasons:
>
> 1. a solution is *already* available and tested for > 1 year.
>
> 2. the deactivation design (which I think is an interesting idea) makes the ext block unsuitable for long-term storage of value.
>
> 3. LN over main chain allows instant exchange of main coin and xcoin without going through the ugly 2-way-peg process.
>
>
>
--
Christopher Jeffrey (JJ) <chjjeffrey at gmail.com>
CTO & Bitcoin Menace, purse.io
https://github.com/chjj
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 488 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20170508/6eb88054/attachment-0001.sig>;