Greg Sanders [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2018-01-08 📝 Original message:>I'm shocked that so many ...
📅 Original date posted:2018-01-08
📝 Original message:>I'm shocked that so many people are resisting the idea that just *maybe* there
could be people in other parts of the world who do not want to use or
cannot use the strict set of latin characters and words from the English
language.
You're mistaking concern for users potentially losing money with disdain
for them. I can read a few languages, yet I would not advise users to use a
wordlist that might not have support across multiple wallet
implementations, resulting in lock-in or worse.
If I'm wrong, great, more people can use software strictly in their native
language in a safe manner!
On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 10:26 AM, AJ West <ajwest at gmail.com> wrote:
> Greg yes, there were already examples in this very thread of people
> explaining how they use languages other than English. I'm shocked that so
> many people are resisting the idea that just *maybe* there could be
> people in other parts of the world who do not want to use or cannot use the
> strict set of latin characters and words from the English language.
>
> I agree with Sjors and maybe I'm simplifying too much, but can't we just
> map an existing ISO/UTF language character standard to the seeds? Why is
> there a word list at all? Choose a flexible encoding standard, create a
> clever map to the bytes, make sure to include a checksum.
>
> As an aside, I know there are some conventions which add space for error
> correction but I personally don't love the idea of somebody inputting what
> they think is the proper seed, only to have it auto-corrected and thus
> reinforcing their erroneously saved/written seed backup.
>
> Pavol, why do you say "I learned that it was something I should've been
> more persistently against?" I still can't see any good arguments as to why
> we should limit this to English other than "It's easier to support a single
> language" which comes at the cost of "It's hard for me to backup my seed"
> for those who don't speak English.
>
> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 10:23 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> > Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it?
>>
>> yes. Based on language stats from the app stores, roughly 30% to 40% of
>> Copay users have their backup on a language
>> other than English, and we constantly get requests to support new
>> languages in BIP39.
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Greg Sanders <gsanders87 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it?
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia <ematiu at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:34 AM, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev <
>>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Has anyone actually used the multilingual support in bip39?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Copay (and all its clones) use it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If a feature of the standard has not been(widely?) used in years, and
>>>>> isn't supported in any major wallet(?), it seems indicative it was a
>>>>> mistake to add it in the first place, since it's a footgun in the making
>>>>> for some poor sap who can't even read English letters when almost all
>>>>> documentation is written in English.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius via bitcoin-dev <
>>>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, 木ノ下じょな <kinoshitajona at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is very sad.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English
>>>>>>> words.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase
>>>>>>> (because he kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down "aneter"
>>>>>>> for "amateur"...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain
>>>>>>> processes the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down.
>>>>>>> Not many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for
>>>>>>> letter, taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Defining "everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier
>>>>>>> to plan for" is not a good way to move forward as a currency.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well said. Thank you for telling of these experiences. Now please,
>>>>>> let’s put the shoe on the other foot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to
>>>>>> entrust *their own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write
>>>>>> this down—then later, type it back in:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> すさん たんろ りゆう しもん ていおん しとう
>>>>>> とこや はやい おうさま ほくろ けちゃっふ たもつ
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Approximate translation: “Whatever would you do if Bitcoin had been
>>>>>> invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?”)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, wait: That is only a 12-word mnemonic. We are probably talking
>>>>>> about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your life’s
>>>>>> savings on your ability to handwrite *this*:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> にあう しひょう にんすう ひえる かいこう いのる ねんし はあさん ひこく
>>>>>> とうく きもためし そなた こなこな にさんかたんそ ろんき めいあん みわく
>>>>>> へこむ すひょう おやゆひ ふせく けさき めいきょく こんまけ
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own
>>>>>> hands? No? Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on
>>>>>> the inverse case.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many
>>>>>> Japanese people know English and other European languages, too. Then think
>>>>>> of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family and
>>>>>> friends—if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks needed to
>>>>>> wrestle with the above phrases as their “mnemonics”.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In such cases, the phrases cannot be called “mnemonics” at all. A
>>>>>> “mnemonic” implies aid to memory. Gibberish in a wholly alien writing
>>>>>> system is much worse even than transcribing pseudorandom hex strings. The
>>>>>> Japanese man in the quoted story, who wrote “aneter” for “amateur”, was not
>>>>>> dealing with a *mnemonic*: He was using the world’s most inefficient means
>>>>>> of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I began this thread with a quite simple request: Is “日本語” an
>>>>>> appropriate string for identifying the Japanese language to Japanese
>>>>>> users? And what of the other strings I posted for other languages?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the
>>>>>> greatest guard against vendor lock-in and stale software: Independent
>>>>>> implementations. — I asked, because obviously, I myself do not speak all
>>>>>> these different languages; and I want to implement them all. *All.*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far,
>>>>>> nobody has squarely addressed the substance of my question.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into
>>>>>> criticism of multi-language support. I opened with a question about other
>>>>>> languages, and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of “English
>>>>>> only!”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever
>>>>>> implementing any standard of this nature which is artificially restricted
>>>>>> to English. I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standard
>>>>>> called “BIP 39” which has seven non-English wordlists, and four more
>>>>>> pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate
>>>>>> for use with that standard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the
>>>>>> foregoing. I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed
>>>>>> characters. I thought of this after I searched for and collected some
>>>>>> visually fascinating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC... It
>>>>>> should go without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> nullius at nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00
>>>>>> 591B2F307E0C
>>>>>> Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested:
>>>>>> 3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG) (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE)
>>>>>> “‘If you’re not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide.’
>>>>>> No! Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.” — nullius
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>>>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matías Alejo Garcia
>>>> @ematiu
>>>> Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads!
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matías Alejo Garcia
>> @ematiu
>> Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads!
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>>
>
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📝 Original message:>I'm shocked that so many people are resisting the idea that just *maybe* there
could be people in other parts of the world who do not want to use or
cannot use the strict set of latin characters and words from the English
language.
You're mistaking concern for users potentially losing money with disdain
for them. I can read a few languages, yet I would not advise users to use a
wordlist that might not have support across multiple wallet
implementations, resulting in lock-in or worse.
If I'm wrong, great, more people can use software strictly in their native
language in a safe manner!
On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 10:26 AM, AJ West <ajwest at gmail.com> wrote:
> Greg yes, there were already examples in this very thread of people
> explaining how they use languages other than English. I'm shocked that so
> many people are resisting the idea that just *maybe* there could be
> people in other parts of the world who do not want to use or cannot use the
> strict set of latin characters and words from the English language.
>
> I agree with Sjors and maybe I'm simplifying too much, but can't we just
> map an existing ISO/UTF language character standard to the seeds? Why is
> there a word list at all? Choose a flexible encoding standard, create a
> clever map to the bytes, make sure to include a checksum.
>
> As an aside, I know there are some conventions which add space for error
> correction but I personally don't love the idea of somebody inputting what
> they think is the proper seed, only to have it auto-corrected and thus
> reinforcing their erroneously saved/written seed backup.
>
> Pavol, why do you say "I learned that it was something I should've been
> more persistently against?" I still can't see any good arguments as to why
> we should limit this to English other than "It's easier to support a single
> language" which comes at the cost of "It's hard for me to backup my seed"
> for those who don't speak English.
>
> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 10:23 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> > Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it?
>>
>> yes. Based on language stats from the app stores, roughly 30% to 40% of
>> Copay users have their backup on a language
>> other than English, and we constantly get requests to support new
>> languages in BIP39.
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Greg Sanders <gsanders87 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it?
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia <ematiu at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:34 AM, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev <
>>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Has anyone actually used the multilingual support in bip39?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Copay (and all its clones) use it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If a feature of the standard has not been(widely?) used in years, and
>>>>> isn't supported in any major wallet(?), it seems indicative it was a
>>>>> mistake to add it in the first place, since it's a footgun in the making
>>>>> for some poor sap who can't even read English letters when almost all
>>>>> documentation is written in English.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius via bitcoin-dev <
>>>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, 木ノ下じょな <kinoshitajona at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is very sad.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English
>>>>>>> words.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase
>>>>>>> (because he kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down "aneter"
>>>>>>> for "amateur"...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain
>>>>>>> processes the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down.
>>>>>>> Not many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for
>>>>>>> letter, taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Defining "everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier
>>>>>>> to plan for" is not a good way to move forward as a currency.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well said. Thank you for telling of these experiences. Now please,
>>>>>> let’s put the shoe on the other foot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to
>>>>>> entrust *their own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write
>>>>>> this down—then later, type it back in:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> すさん たんろ りゆう しもん ていおん しとう
>>>>>> とこや はやい おうさま ほくろ けちゃっふ たもつ
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Approximate translation: “Whatever would you do if Bitcoin had been
>>>>>> invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?”)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, wait: That is only a 12-word mnemonic. We are probably talking
>>>>>> about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your life’s
>>>>>> savings on your ability to handwrite *this*:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> にあう しひょう にんすう ひえる かいこう いのる ねんし はあさん ひこく
>>>>>> とうく きもためし そなた こなこな にさんかたんそ ろんき めいあん みわく
>>>>>> へこむ すひょう おやゆひ ふせく けさき めいきょく こんまけ
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own
>>>>>> hands? No? Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on
>>>>>> the inverse case.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many
>>>>>> Japanese people know English and other European languages, too. Then think
>>>>>> of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family and
>>>>>> friends—if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks needed to
>>>>>> wrestle with the above phrases as their “mnemonics”.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In such cases, the phrases cannot be called “mnemonics” at all. A
>>>>>> “mnemonic” implies aid to memory. Gibberish in a wholly alien writing
>>>>>> system is much worse even than transcribing pseudorandom hex strings. The
>>>>>> Japanese man in the quoted story, who wrote “aneter” for “amateur”, was not
>>>>>> dealing with a *mnemonic*: He was using the world’s most inefficient means
>>>>>> of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I began this thread with a quite simple request: Is “日本語” an
>>>>>> appropriate string for identifying the Japanese language to Japanese
>>>>>> users? And what of the other strings I posted for other languages?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the
>>>>>> greatest guard against vendor lock-in and stale software: Independent
>>>>>> implementations. — I asked, because obviously, I myself do not speak all
>>>>>> these different languages; and I want to implement them all. *All.*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far,
>>>>>> nobody has squarely addressed the substance of my question.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into
>>>>>> criticism of multi-language support. I opened with a question about other
>>>>>> languages, and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of “English
>>>>>> only!”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever
>>>>>> implementing any standard of this nature which is artificially restricted
>>>>>> to English. I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standard
>>>>>> called “BIP 39” which has seven non-English wordlists, and four more
>>>>>> pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate
>>>>>> for use with that standard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the
>>>>>> foregoing. I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed
>>>>>> characters. I thought of this after I searched for and collected some
>>>>>> visually fascinating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC... It
>>>>>> should go without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> nullius at nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00
>>>>>> 591B2F307E0C
>>>>>> Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested:
>>>>>> 3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG) (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE)
>>>>>> “‘If you’re not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide.’
>>>>>> No! Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.” — nullius
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>>>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matías Alejo Garcia
>>>> @ematiu
>>>> Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads!
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matías Alejo Garcia
>> @ematiu
>> Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads!
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>>
>
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