ZmnSCPxj [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2018-02-04 📝 Original message: Good morning Cezary, > I ...
📅 Original date posted:2018-02-04
📝 Original message:
Good morning Cezary,
> I think first two options are for those, who want to earn some money for payments fee. The option that can be interesting for for some business like coffee is third option. Do you agree with me?
>
>> 3. In all likelihood, some service later will offer deals like "up to 300mBTC receive for only 1mBTC! At least 3 months channel alive!" for new upcoming businesses.
>
> It seams the best option for new businesses, but what if such new business would like to have channel with 300mBTC on both side. Let's say this is ATM. The owner of ATM need to be able to receive and sending funds. Without possibility of both-side funding channels this is quite hard to establish such balanced channel. ATM owner needs to send 300 mBTC as on-side transaction to hub, and then hub could open channel with 600 mBTC capacity and send back 300mBTC to ATM owner though this new channel. This requires trust to hub.
Then do not trust a single hub. Instead, have incoming 300mBTC from one hub, then make an outgoing 300mBTC to another hub. Encourages more hubs also. This also makes your node a potential routing node, improving network connectivity.
> I know, LN is in early stage, but I'm very surprised that both sides cannot fund channel. Maybe this is because at the beginning LN was presented with such option. The only reason are trust issues that you described before, or maybe there are also some technical issues to implement such functionality? Do you predict this will be added to BOLT and implemented in the future?
There is already an issue regarding this. For now, priority is actual implementation of payments. Dual-funding channels can be emulated by having some hubbing service make channels to you, while you make a channel to some other hub (i.e. make two channels). Such an emulation is superior to dual-funding as it allows you to potentially become some alternate route if other routes become congested, letting you earn some small amount; compare this to a single dual-funding channel that, by itself, cannot be used to for routing.
Another thing is that we can make "circular superhubs" if small groups of us cooperate. The smallest 3-circle superhub has 3 members A B C. A opens channel to B, B open channels t C, C open channels to A. Each channel is the same capacity. If each of you has one out-channel other than on the circular superhub, any of A B C can spend to any node that any of them have an out-channel to. Similarly, each of you can receive via any in-channel any of you happen to have. Join a few such small communities and you can be well-connected enough to send and receive reasonably seamlessly to anyone on the network.
Regards,
ZmnSCPxj
> Best regards,
> Cezary
>
> 2018-02-04 10:08 GMT+01:00 ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj at protonmail.com>:
>
>> Good morning Cezary,
>>> Lets say I would like to receive ln payments. How can I do this, without locking funds on the other side of channel?
>>
>> 1. Do the Blockstream Store route: do it early enough, and people will make channels to you, because, they want to try out Lightning Network quickly.
>>
>> 2. Publish the node and contact details (IP or TOR onion service) and hope people are excited enough about your product to open a channel to you.
>>
>> 3. In all likelihood, some service later will offer deals like "up to 300mBTC receive for only 1mBTC! At least 3 months channel alive!" for new upcoming businesses.
>>
>> 4. Ask a friend to channel to you.
>>
>> Regards,
>> ZmnSCPxj
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📝 Original message:
Good morning Cezary,
> I think first two options are for those, who want to earn some money for payments fee. The option that can be interesting for for some business like coffee is third option. Do you agree with me?
>
>> 3. In all likelihood, some service later will offer deals like "up to 300mBTC receive for only 1mBTC! At least 3 months channel alive!" for new upcoming businesses.
>
> It seams the best option for new businesses, but what if such new business would like to have channel with 300mBTC on both side. Let's say this is ATM. The owner of ATM need to be able to receive and sending funds. Without possibility of both-side funding channels this is quite hard to establish such balanced channel. ATM owner needs to send 300 mBTC as on-side transaction to hub, and then hub could open channel with 600 mBTC capacity and send back 300mBTC to ATM owner though this new channel. This requires trust to hub.
Then do not trust a single hub. Instead, have incoming 300mBTC from one hub, then make an outgoing 300mBTC to another hub. Encourages more hubs also. This also makes your node a potential routing node, improving network connectivity.
> I know, LN is in early stage, but I'm very surprised that both sides cannot fund channel. Maybe this is because at the beginning LN was presented with such option. The only reason are trust issues that you described before, or maybe there are also some technical issues to implement such functionality? Do you predict this will be added to BOLT and implemented in the future?
There is already an issue regarding this. For now, priority is actual implementation of payments. Dual-funding channels can be emulated by having some hubbing service make channels to you, while you make a channel to some other hub (i.e. make two channels). Such an emulation is superior to dual-funding as it allows you to potentially become some alternate route if other routes become congested, letting you earn some small amount; compare this to a single dual-funding channel that, by itself, cannot be used to for routing.
Another thing is that we can make "circular superhubs" if small groups of us cooperate. The smallest 3-circle superhub has 3 members A B C. A opens channel to B, B open channels t C, C open channels to A. Each channel is the same capacity. If each of you has one out-channel other than on the circular superhub, any of A B C can spend to any node that any of them have an out-channel to. Similarly, each of you can receive via any in-channel any of you happen to have. Join a few such small communities and you can be well-connected enough to send and receive reasonably seamlessly to anyone on the network.
Regards,
ZmnSCPxj
> Best regards,
> Cezary
>
> 2018-02-04 10:08 GMT+01:00 ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj at protonmail.com>:
>
>> Good morning Cezary,
>>> Lets say I would like to receive ln payments. How can I do this, without locking funds on the other side of channel?
>>
>> 1. Do the Blockstream Store route: do it early enough, and people will make channels to you, because, they want to try out Lightning Network quickly.
>>
>> 2. Publish the node and contact details (IP or TOR onion service) and hope people are excited enough about your product to open a channel to you.
>>
>> 3. In all likelihood, some service later will offer deals like "up to 300mBTC receive for only 1mBTC! At least 3 months channel alive!" for new upcoming businesses.
>>
>> 4. Ask a friend to channel to you.
>>
>> Regards,
>> ZmnSCPxj
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