Mike Hearn [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: đź“… Original date posted:2014-03-06 đź“ť Original message:I'm wondering about ...
đź“… Original date posted:2014-03-06
đź“ť Original message:I'm wondering about whether (don't laugh) moving signing into the kernel
and then using the MTRRs to disable caching entirely for a small scratch
region of memory would also work. You could then disable pre-emption and
prevent anything on the same core from interrupting or timing the signing
operation.
However I suspect just making a hardened secp256k1 signer implementation in
userspace would be of similar difficulty, in which case it would naturally
be preferable.
On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 11:25 PM, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Everything you say is true.
> >
> > However, branchless does reduce the attack surface considerably - if
> nothing else, it significantly ups the difficulty of an attack for a
> relatively low cost in program complexity, and that might still make it
> worth doing.
>
> Absolutely. I believe these things are worth doing.
>
> My comment on it being insufficient was only that "my signer is
> branchless" doesn't make other defense measures (avoiding reuse,
> multsig with multiple devices, not sharing hardware, etc.)
> unimportant.
>
> > As for uniform memory access, if we avoided any kind of heap allocation,
> wouldn't we avoid such issues?
>
> No. At a minimum to hide a memory timing side-channel you must perform
> no data dependent loads (e.g. no operation where an offset into memory
> is calculated). A strategy for this is to always load the same values,
> but then mask out the ones you didn't intend to read... even that I'd
> worry about on sufficiently advanced hardware, since I would very much
> not be surprised if the processor was able to determine that the load
> had no effect and eliminate it! :) )
>
> Maybe in practice if your data dependencies end up only picking around
> in the same cache-line it doesn't actually matter... but it's hard to
> be sure, and unclear when a future optimization in the rest of the
> system might leave it exposed again.
>
> (In particular, you can't generally write timing sign-channel immune
> code in C (or other high level language) because the compiler is
> freely permitted to optimize things in a way that break the property.
> ... It may be _unlikely_ for it to do this, but its permitted— and
> will actually do so in some cases—, so you cannot be completely sure
> unless you check and freeze the toolchain)
>
> > Anyhow, without having gone into the full details of this particular
> attack, it seems the main attack point is differences in how squaring and
> multiplication (in the case of field exponentiation) or doubling and point
> addition (in the case of ECDSA) are performed. I believe using a branchless
> implementation where each phase of the operation executes the exact same
> code and accesses the exact same stack frames would not be vulnerable to
> FLUSH+RELOAD.
>
> I wouldn't be surprised.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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đź“ť Original message:I'm wondering about whether (don't laugh) moving signing into the kernel
and then using the MTRRs to disable caching entirely for a small scratch
region of memory would also work. You could then disable pre-emption and
prevent anything on the same core from interrupting or timing the signing
operation.
However I suspect just making a hardened secp256k1 signer implementation in
userspace would be of similar difficulty, in which case it would naturally
be preferable.
On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 11:25 PM, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Everything you say is true.
> >
> > However, branchless does reduce the attack surface considerably - if
> nothing else, it significantly ups the difficulty of an attack for a
> relatively low cost in program complexity, and that might still make it
> worth doing.
>
> Absolutely. I believe these things are worth doing.
>
> My comment on it being insufficient was only that "my signer is
> branchless" doesn't make other defense measures (avoiding reuse,
> multsig with multiple devices, not sharing hardware, etc.)
> unimportant.
>
> > As for uniform memory access, if we avoided any kind of heap allocation,
> wouldn't we avoid such issues?
>
> No. At a minimum to hide a memory timing side-channel you must perform
> no data dependent loads (e.g. no operation where an offset into memory
> is calculated). A strategy for this is to always load the same values,
> but then mask out the ones you didn't intend to read... even that I'd
> worry about on sufficiently advanced hardware, since I would very much
> not be surprised if the processor was able to determine that the load
> had no effect and eliminate it! :) )
>
> Maybe in practice if your data dependencies end up only picking around
> in the same cache-line it doesn't actually matter... but it's hard to
> be sure, and unclear when a future optimization in the rest of the
> system might leave it exposed again.
>
> (In particular, you can't generally write timing sign-channel immune
> code in C (or other high level language) because the compiler is
> freely permitted to optimize things in a way that break the property.
> ... It may be _unlikely_ for it to do this, but its permitted— and
> will actually do so in some cases—, so you cannot be completely sure
> unless you check and freeze the toolchain)
>
> > Anyhow, without having gone into the full details of this particular
> attack, it seems the main attack point is differences in how squaring and
> multiplication (in the case of field exponentiation) or doubling and point
> addition (in the case of ECDSA) are performed. I believe using a branchless
> implementation where each phase of the operation executes the exact same
> code and accesses the exact same stack frames would not be vulnerable to
> FLUSH+RELOAD.
>
> I wouldn't be surprised.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Subversion Kills Productivity. Get off Subversion & Make the Move to
> Perforce.
> With Perforce, you get hassle-free workflows. Merge that actually works.
> Faster operations. Version large binaries. Built-in WAN optimization and
> the
> freedom to use Git, Perforce or both. Make the move to Perforce.
>
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=122218951&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
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