读书人写书人 on Nostr: 【对话录】什么才能带来改变？ Questioner: What do you mean? All ...
【对话录】什么才能带来改变？
Questioner: What do you mean? All historical changes have taken place in time; none of them has been immediate. You are proposing something quite inconceivable.
发问者：你是什么意思？历史上的所有改变都是花时间发生的；没有什么是立刻发生的。你在倡议某种实在无法想象的事情。
Krishnamurti: If you take time to change, do you suppose that life is in suspension during the time it takes to change? It isn't in suspension. Everything you are trying to change is being modified and perpetuated by the environment, by life itself. So there is no end to it. It is like trying to clean the water in a tank which is constantly being refilled with dirty water. So time is out.
克：如果你花时间去改变，那么你认为在改变期间，生活可以暂停吗？生活并没有暂停。你试图改变的一切都在被环境、被生活本身调整着、延续着。所以生活没有停止。这就像试图清洁一个不断装入脏水的罐子里的水一样。所以没有时间了。
Now, what is to bring about this change? It cannot be will, or determination, or choice, or desire, because all these are part of the entity that has to be changed. So we must ask what actually is possible, without the action of will and assertiveness which is always the action of conflict.
那么，什么才能带来这改变？意志、决心、选择和欲望都不能带来这改变，因为这一切都是必须被改变的实体的一部分。所以我们必须问一问，不通过意志和决断的行为，这些行为始终是冲突的行为，那么到底什么才是可能的。
Questioner: Is there any action which is not the action of will and assertiveness?
发问者：存在着不属于意志和决断的行为吗？
Krishnamurti: Instead of asking this question let us go much deeper. Let us see that actually it is only the action of will and assertiveness that needs to be changed at all, because the only mischief in relationship is conflict, between individuals or within individuals, and conflict is will and assertiveness. Living without such action does not mean that we live like vegetables. Conflict is our main concern. All the social maladies you mentioned are the projection of this conflict in the heart of each human being. The only possible change is a radical transformation of yourself in all your relationships, not in some vague future, but now.
克：让我们更深入地探索下去，而不是问出这个问题。让我们看清实际上唯一需要被改变的正是意志和决断的行为，因为关系中唯一的伤害就是个体之间或者个体内在的冲突，而冲突就是意志和决断。生活中没有这样的行为并不意味着我们活得像行尸走肉。冲突是我们主要关注的事情。你提到的所有社会弊病正是每个人内心中这种冲突的投射。唯一可能的改变是在你自己所有的关系中彻底转变自己，不是等到某个模糊的将来，而是现在。
Questioner: But how can I completely eradicate this conflict in myself, this contradiction, this resistance, this conditioning? I understand what you mean intellectually, but I can only change when I feel it passionately, and I don't feel it passionately. It is merely an idea to me; I don't see it with my heart. If I try to act on this intellectual understanding I am in conflict with another, deeper, part of myself.
发问者：但是我要怎样彻底根除自己身上的这种冲突、这种矛盾、这种抗拒、这种局限？我从道理上明白你的意思，但是只有在我强烈地感受到这点的时候我才能改变，而我并没有强烈地感受到。对我来说这只是个概念而已；我没有用我的心看到这点。如果我试图根据这智识上的理解来行动，那么我就会与我自己更深层的另一面发生冲突。
Krishnamurti: If you really see this contradiction passionately, then that very perception is the revolution. If you see in yourself this division between the mind and the heart, actually see it, not conceive of it theoretically, but see it, then the problem comes to an end. A man who is passionate about the world and the necessity for change, must be free from political activity, religious conformity and tradition - which means, free from the weight of time, free from the burden of the past, free from all the action of will: this is the new human being.
克：如果你真的强烈地看到了这冲突，那么这洞察本身就是革命。如果你看到了自己内在头脑和心灵之间的这种分裂，真切地看到这点，不是理论上的设想，而是的确看到了这点，那么这个问题就结束了。一个对世界及改变的迫切性满怀热情的人，必须从政治活动、宗教遵从和传统中解脱出来——这就意味着，从时间的重负下解脱出来，从过去的重负、从意志力的所有行为中解脱出来：这就是新人类。
The Urgency of Change, 'The New Human Being'
《转变的紧迫性》之“新人类”
Questioner: What do you mean? All historical changes have taken place in time; none of them has been immediate. You are proposing something quite inconceivable.
发问者：你是什么意思？历史上的所有改变都是花时间发生的；没有什么是立刻发生的。你在倡议某种实在无法想象的事情。
Krishnamurti: If you take time to change, do you suppose that life is in suspension during the time it takes to change? It isn't in suspension. Everything you are trying to change is being modified and perpetuated by the environment, by life itself. So there is no end to it. It is like trying to clean the water in a tank which is constantly being refilled with dirty water. So time is out.
克：如果你花时间去改变，那么你认为在改变期间，生活可以暂停吗？生活并没有暂停。你试图改变的一切都在被环境、被生活本身调整着、延续着。所以生活没有停止。这就像试图清洁一个不断装入脏水的罐子里的水一样。所以没有时间了。
Now, what is to bring about this change? It cannot be will, or determination, or choice, or desire, because all these are part of the entity that has to be changed. So we must ask what actually is possible, without the action of will and assertiveness which is always the action of conflict.
那么，什么才能带来这改变？意志、决心、选择和欲望都不能带来这改变，因为这一切都是必须被改变的实体的一部分。所以我们必须问一问，不通过意志和决断的行为，这些行为始终是冲突的行为，那么到底什么才是可能的。
Questioner: Is there any action which is not the action of will and assertiveness?
发问者：存在着不属于意志和决断的行为吗？
Krishnamurti: Instead of asking this question let us go much deeper. Let us see that actually it is only the action of will and assertiveness that needs to be changed at all, because the only mischief in relationship is conflict, between individuals or within individuals, and conflict is will and assertiveness. Living without such action does not mean that we live like vegetables. Conflict is our main concern. All the social maladies you mentioned are the projection of this conflict in the heart of each human being. The only possible change is a radical transformation of yourself in all your relationships, not in some vague future, but now.
克：让我们更深入地探索下去，而不是问出这个问题。让我们看清实际上唯一需要被改变的正是意志和决断的行为，因为关系中唯一的伤害就是个体之间或者个体内在的冲突，而冲突就是意志和决断。生活中没有这样的行为并不意味着我们活得像行尸走肉。冲突是我们主要关注的事情。你提到的所有社会弊病正是每个人内心中这种冲突的投射。唯一可能的改变是在你自己所有的关系中彻底转变自己，不是等到某个模糊的将来，而是现在。
Questioner: But how can I completely eradicate this conflict in myself, this contradiction, this resistance, this conditioning? I understand what you mean intellectually, but I can only change when I feel it passionately, and I don't feel it passionately. It is merely an idea to me; I don't see it with my heart. If I try to act on this intellectual understanding I am in conflict with another, deeper, part of myself.
发问者：但是我要怎样彻底根除自己身上的这种冲突、这种矛盾、这种抗拒、这种局限？我从道理上明白你的意思，但是只有在我强烈地感受到这点的时候我才能改变，而我并没有强烈地感受到。对我来说这只是个概念而已；我没有用我的心看到这点。如果我试图根据这智识上的理解来行动，那么我就会与我自己更深层的另一面发生冲突。
Krishnamurti: If you really see this contradiction passionately, then that very perception is the revolution. If you see in yourself this division between the mind and the heart, actually see it, not conceive of it theoretically, but see it, then the problem comes to an end. A man who is passionate about the world and the necessity for change, must be free from political activity, religious conformity and tradition - which means, free from the weight of time, free from the burden of the past, free from all the action of will: this is the new human being.
克：如果你真的强烈地看到了这冲突，那么这洞察本身就是革命。如果你看到了自己内在头脑和心灵之间的这种分裂，真切地看到这点，不是理论上的设想，而是的确看到了这点，那么这个问题就结束了。一个对世界及改变的迫切性满怀热情的人，必须从政治活动、宗教遵从和传统中解脱出来——这就意味着，从时间的重负下解脱出来，从过去的重负、从意志力的所有行为中解脱出来：这就是新人类。
The Urgency of Change, 'The New Human Being'
《转变的紧迫性》之“新人类”