Andy Schroder [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: š Original date posted:2015-06-28 š Original message:Regarding privacy and the ...
š
Original date posted:2015-06-28
š Original message:Regarding privacy and the lightening network. Has this been well
addressed? I haven't seen much that leads me to believe there is. Only
options I see are to have many open payment channels, but that is still
limiting and inefficient, or require an extensive number of hops in your
payment route, but this is also limiting.
Andy Schroder
On 06/28/2015 06:07 PM, Adam Back wrote:
> On 28 June 2015 at 23:05, Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 2:58 PM, Adam Back <adam at cypherspace.org> wrote:
>>> This is probably going to sound impolite, but I think it's pertinent.
>>>
>>> Gavin, on dwelling on the the fact that you appear to not understand
>>> the basics of the lightning network, I am a little alarmed about this
>> If I don't see how switching from using the thousands of fully-validating
>> bitcoin nodes with (tens? hundreds?) of Lightning Network hubs is better in
>> terms of decentralization (or security, in terms of Sybil/DoS attacks),
> Its a source routed network, not a broadcast network. Fees are
> charged on channels so
> DoS is just a way to pay people a multiple of bandwidth cost.
>
> in terms of trustlessness Andrew Lapp explained it pretty well:
>> I don't mind a set of central authorities being part of an option IF the central authority
>> doesn't need to be trusted. On the blockchain, the larger miner is, the more you have
>> to trust them to not collude with anyone to reverse your payments or destroy the trust
>> in the system in some attack. On the Lightning network, a large hub can't steal my
>> money.
>>
>> I think most people share the sentiment that trustlessness is what matters and
>> decentralization is just a synonym for trustlessness when talking about the blockchain
>> and mining, however decentralization isn't necessarily synonymous with trustlessness
>> nor is centralization synonymous with trust-requiring when you're talking about
>> something else.
> Gavin wrote:
>> then I doubt other people do, either. You need to do a better job of explaining it.
> I gave it a go a couple of posts up. I didnt realise people here
> proposing mega-blocks were not paying attention to the whole lightning
> concept and detail.
>
> People said lots of things about how it's better to work on lightning,
> to scale algorithmically, rather than increasing block-size to
> dangerously centralising proportions.
> Did you think we were Gish Galloping you? We were completely serious.
>
> The paper is on http://lightning.network
>
> though it is not so clearly explained there, however Joseph is working
> on improving the paper as I understand it.
>
> Rusty wrote a high-level blog explainer: http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=450
>
> though I don't recall that he got into recirculation, negative fees
> etc. A good question
> for the lightning-dev mailing list maybe.
>
> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/
>
> There are a couple of recorded presentation videos / podcasts from Joseph Poon.
>
> sf bitcoin dev presentation:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QH5EV_Io0E
>
> epicenter bitcoin:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBS_ieDwQ9k
>
> There's a related paper from Christian Decker "Duplex Micropayment Channels"
>
> http://www.tik.ee.ethz.ch/file/716b955c130e6c703fac336ea17b1670/duplex-micropayment-channels.pdf
>
>> But even if you could convince me that it WAS better from a
>> security/decentralization point of view:
> We don't need to convince people, we just have to code it and
> demonstrate it, which people are working on.
>
> But Lightning does need a decentralised and secure Bitcoin network for
> anchor and reclaim transactions, so take it easy with the mega-blocks
> in the mean-time.
>
>> a) Lightning Network is nothing but a whitepaper right now. We are a long
>> way from a practical implementation supported by even one wallet.
> maybe you want to check in on
>
> https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning
>
> and help code it.
>
> I expect we can get something running inside a year. Which kind of
> obviates the burning "need" for a schedule into the far future rising
> to 8GB with unrealistic bandwidth growth assumptions that will surely
> cause centralisation problems.
>
> For block-size I think it would be better to have a 2-4 year or one
> off size bump with policy limits and then re-evaluate after we've seen
> what lightning can do.
>
> I have been saying the same thing ad-nauseam for weeks.
>
>> b) The Lightning Network paper itself says bigger blocks will be needed even
>> if (especially if!) Lightning is wildly successful.
> Not nearly as big as if you tried to put the transactions it would
> enable on the chain, that's for sure! We dont know what that limit is
> but people have been imagining 1,000 or 10,000 transactions per anchor
> transaction. If micro-payments get popular many more.
>
> Basically users would park Bitcoins a on a hub channel instead of the
> blockchain. The channel can stay up indefinitely, and the user has
> assurances analogous to greenaddress time-lock mechanism
>
> Flexcap maybe a better solution because that allows bursting
> block-size when economically rational.
>
> Note that the time-locks with lightning are assumed to be relative
> CTLV eg using the mechanism as Mark Friedenbach described in a post
> here, and as implemented in the elements sidechain, so there is not a
> huge rush to reclaim funds. They can be spread out in time.
>
> If you want to scale Bitcoin - like really scale it - work on
> lightning. Lightning + a decentralised and secure Bitcoin, scales
> further and is more trustless than Bitcoin forced into centralisation
> via premature mega-blocks.
>
> To my mind a shorter, more conservative block-size increase to give a
> few years room is enough for now. We'll be in a better position to
> know what the right next step is after lightning is running.
>
> Something to mention is you can elide transactions before reclaiming.
> So long as the balancing transaction is correct, someone online can
> swap it for you with an equal balance one with less hops of
> intermediate payment flows.
>
>
> It's pretty interesting what you can do already. I'm fairly confident
> we're not finished algorithmically optimising it either. It's
> surprising how much new territory there is just sitting there
> unexplored.
>
> Adam
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
>
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š Original message:Regarding privacy and the lightening network. Has this been well
addressed? I haven't seen much that leads me to believe there is. Only
options I see are to have many open payment channels, but that is still
limiting and inefficient, or require an extensive number of hops in your
payment route, but this is also limiting.
Andy Schroder
On 06/28/2015 06:07 PM, Adam Back wrote:
> On 28 June 2015 at 23:05, Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 2:58 PM, Adam Back <adam at cypherspace.org> wrote:
>>> This is probably going to sound impolite, but I think it's pertinent.
>>>
>>> Gavin, on dwelling on the the fact that you appear to not understand
>>> the basics of the lightning network, I am a little alarmed about this
>> If I don't see how switching from using the thousands of fully-validating
>> bitcoin nodes with (tens? hundreds?) of Lightning Network hubs is better in
>> terms of decentralization (or security, in terms of Sybil/DoS attacks),
> Its a source routed network, not a broadcast network. Fees are
> charged on channels so
> DoS is just a way to pay people a multiple of bandwidth cost.
>
> in terms of trustlessness Andrew Lapp explained it pretty well:
>> I don't mind a set of central authorities being part of an option IF the central authority
>> doesn't need to be trusted. On the blockchain, the larger miner is, the more you have
>> to trust them to not collude with anyone to reverse your payments or destroy the trust
>> in the system in some attack. On the Lightning network, a large hub can't steal my
>> money.
>>
>> I think most people share the sentiment that trustlessness is what matters and
>> decentralization is just a synonym for trustlessness when talking about the blockchain
>> and mining, however decentralization isn't necessarily synonymous with trustlessness
>> nor is centralization synonymous with trust-requiring when you're talking about
>> something else.
> Gavin wrote:
>> then I doubt other people do, either. You need to do a better job of explaining it.
> I gave it a go a couple of posts up. I didnt realise people here
> proposing mega-blocks were not paying attention to the whole lightning
> concept and detail.
>
> People said lots of things about how it's better to work on lightning,
> to scale algorithmically, rather than increasing block-size to
> dangerously centralising proportions.
> Did you think we were Gish Galloping you? We were completely serious.
>
> The paper is on http://lightning.network
>
> though it is not so clearly explained there, however Joseph is working
> on improving the paper as I understand it.
>
> Rusty wrote a high-level blog explainer: http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=450
>
> though I don't recall that he got into recirculation, negative fees
> etc. A good question
> for the lightning-dev mailing list maybe.
>
> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/
>
> There are a couple of recorded presentation videos / podcasts from Joseph Poon.
>
> sf bitcoin dev presentation:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QH5EV_Io0E
>
> epicenter bitcoin:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBS_ieDwQ9k
>
> There's a related paper from Christian Decker "Duplex Micropayment Channels"
>
> http://www.tik.ee.ethz.ch/file/716b955c130e6c703fac336ea17b1670/duplex-micropayment-channels.pdf
>
>> But even if you could convince me that it WAS better from a
>> security/decentralization point of view:
> We don't need to convince people, we just have to code it and
> demonstrate it, which people are working on.
>
> But Lightning does need a decentralised and secure Bitcoin network for
> anchor and reclaim transactions, so take it easy with the mega-blocks
> in the mean-time.
>
>> a) Lightning Network is nothing but a whitepaper right now. We are a long
>> way from a practical implementation supported by even one wallet.
> maybe you want to check in on
>
> https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning
>
> and help code it.
>
> I expect we can get something running inside a year. Which kind of
> obviates the burning "need" for a schedule into the far future rising
> to 8GB with unrealistic bandwidth growth assumptions that will surely
> cause centralisation problems.
>
> For block-size I think it would be better to have a 2-4 year or one
> off size bump with policy limits and then re-evaluate after we've seen
> what lightning can do.
>
> I have been saying the same thing ad-nauseam for weeks.
>
>> b) The Lightning Network paper itself says bigger blocks will be needed even
>> if (especially if!) Lightning is wildly successful.
> Not nearly as big as if you tried to put the transactions it would
> enable on the chain, that's for sure! We dont know what that limit is
> but people have been imagining 1,000 or 10,000 transactions per anchor
> transaction. If micro-payments get popular many more.
>
> Basically users would park Bitcoins a on a hub channel instead of the
> blockchain. The channel can stay up indefinitely, and the user has
> assurances analogous to greenaddress time-lock mechanism
>
> Flexcap maybe a better solution because that allows bursting
> block-size when economically rational.
>
> Note that the time-locks with lightning are assumed to be relative
> CTLV eg using the mechanism as Mark Friedenbach described in a post
> here, and as implemented in the elements sidechain, so there is not a
> huge rush to reclaim funds. They can be spread out in time.
>
> If you want to scale Bitcoin - like really scale it - work on
> lightning. Lightning + a decentralised and secure Bitcoin, scales
> further and is more trustless than Bitcoin forced into centralisation
> via premature mega-blocks.
>
> To my mind a shorter, more conservative block-size increase to give a
> few years room is enough for now. We'll be in a better position to
> know what the right next step is after lightning is running.
>
> Something to mention is you can elide transactions before reclaiming.
> So long as the balancing transaction is correct, someone online can
> swap it for you with an equal balance one with less hops of
> intermediate payment flows.
>
>
> It's pretty interesting what you can do already. I'm fairly confident
> we're not finished algorithmically optimising it either. It's
> surprising how much new territory there is just sitting there
> unexplored.
>
> Adam
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
>
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