Erik Aronesty [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2021-09-02 📝 Original message:drivechain is a cool ...
📅 Original date posted:2021-09-02
📝 Original message:drivechain is a cool proposal. i don't think there's a ton of
obvious risk to the network itself (not slow, not too much work for
nodes, etc), but it seems to encourage "bad behavior", not sure the
incentives line up to prevent thefts, and not sure that won't turn
around and bite bitcoin's main chain.
of course stacks can do this even without drivechain, so not sure what
we're hiding from there
if you're talking about extensions there's lightning-compatible
mimblewimble, which is probably more important, since it gets bitcoin
to global-scale payments, while improving fungibility, and probably
can't be implemented safely via drivechain
On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 2:24 PM Prayank via bitcoin-dev
<bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> printf("Hello, World!");
>
> What are your thoughts on Drivechain and associated BIPs?
>
> This article compares Liquid and Lightning: https://blog.liquid.net/six-differences-between-liquid-and-lightning/. Two things from it that I am interested in while evaluating Drivechain:
>
> 1.Trust model
> 2.On-Ramps and Off-Ramps
>
> Other things:
>
> 1.Security of Bitcoin (Layer 1)
> 2.Bitcoin transactions and fees expected on layer 1 because of Drivechain
>
> Similarities and Differences between RSK and Ethereum: https://medium.com/iovlabs-innovation-stories/similarities-and-differences-between-rsk-and-ethereum-e480655eff37
>
> Paul Sztorc had mentioned few things about fees in this video: https://youtu.be/oga8Pwbq9M0?t=481 I am interested to know same for LN, Liquid and Rootstock as well so asked a question on Bitcoin Stackexchange today: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/109466/bitcoin-transactions-associated-with-layer-2-projects
>
> Two critiques are mentioned here: https://www.drivechain.info/peer-review/peer-review-new/ with lot of names. I don't agree with everything mentioned on project website although any comments on technical things that can help Bitcoin and Bitcoin projects will be great.
>
> Why discuss here and not on Twitter?
>
> 1.Twitter is not the best place for such discussions. There are some interesting threads but Its mostly used for followers, likes, retweets etc. and people can write anything for it.
> 2.Avoid misinformation, controversies etc.
>
> My personal opinion:
>
> We should encourage sidechain projects. I don't know much about Drivechain to form a strong opinion but concept looks good which can help in making better sidechains.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> The website used in the slides of above YouTube video is misleading for few reasons:
>
> 1.Blocks mined everyday (in MB) for Bitcoin is ~150 MB. It is ~600 MB for Ethereum. Block limits for Bitcoin is ~4 MB per 10 minutes and ~500 MB for Ethereum. If full nodes will be run by few organizations on AWS we can basically do everything on chain. However the main goal isn't too make money and create an illusion to do something innovative, primary goal was/is decentralized network that allows settlement of payments.
>
> 2.Bitcoin uses UTXO model while Ethereum uses Account model. Basic difference in transactions for two is explained in an article https://coinmetrics.io/on-data-and-certainty/. Irony is the website in the slides for screenshot is using Coinmetrics API and this misleading website is even shared by Coinmetrics team on Twitter. So in some cases you are doing more transactions, paying more fees for work which could have been done with less. Inefficiency.
>
> 3.Failed transactions paying fees on Ethereum everyday, no such transactions on Bitcoin.
>
> 4.Other improvements that affect fees: Segwit, Layer 2, Batching, UTXO consolidation, Fee estimation, Coin selection, Exchanges, Wallets etc.
>
>
> --
> Prayank
>
> A3B1 E430 2298 178F
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
📝 Original message:drivechain is a cool proposal. i don't think there's a ton of
obvious risk to the network itself (not slow, not too much work for
nodes, etc), but it seems to encourage "bad behavior", not sure the
incentives line up to prevent thefts, and not sure that won't turn
around and bite bitcoin's main chain.
of course stacks can do this even without drivechain, so not sure what
we're hiding from there
if you're talking about extensions there's lightning-compatible
mimblewimble, which is probably more important, since it gets bitcoin
to global-scale payments, while improving fungibility, and probably
can't be implemented safely via drivechain
On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 2:24 PM Prayank via bitcoin-dev
<bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> printf("Hello, World!");
>
> What are your thoughts on Drivechain and associated BIPs?
>
> This article compares Liquid and Lightning: https://blog.liquid.net/six-differences-between-liquid-and-lightning/. Two things from it that I am interested in while evaluating Drivechain:
>
> 1.Trust model
> 2.On-Ramps and Off-Ramps
>
> Other things:
>
> 1.Security of Bitcoin (Layer 1)
> 2.Bitcoin transactions and fees expected on layer 1 because of Drivechain
>
> Similarities and Differences between RSK and Ethereum: https://medium.com/iovlabs-innovation-stories/similarities-and-differences-between-rsk-and-ethereum-e480655eff37
>
> Paul Sztorc had mentioned few things about fees in this video: https://youtu.be/oga8Pwbq9M0?t=481 I am interested to know same for LN, Liquid and Rootstock as well so asked a question on Bitcoin Stackexchange today: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/109466/bitcoin-transactions-associated-with-layer-2-projects
>
> Two critiques are mentioned here: https://www.drivechain.info/peer-review/peer-review-new/ with lot of names. I don't agree with everything mentioned on project website although any comments on technical things that can help Bitcoin and Bitcoin projects will be great.
>
> Why discuss here and not on Twitter?
>
> 1.Twitter is not the best place for such discussions. There are some interesting threads but Its mostly used for followers, likes, retweets etc. and people can write anything for it.
> 2.Avoid misinformation, controversies etc.
>
> My personal opinion:
>
> We should encourage sidechain projects. I don't know much about Drivechain to form a strong opinion but concept looks good which can help in making better sidechains.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> The website used in the slides of above YouTube video is misleading for few reasons:
>
> 1.Blocks mined everyday (in MB) for Bitcoin is ~150 MB. It is ~600 MB for Ethereum. Block limits for Bitcoin is ~4 MB per 10 minutes and ~500 MB for Ethereum. If full nodes will be run by few organizations on AWS we can basically do everything on chain. However the main goal isn't too make money and create an illusion to do something innovative, primary goal was/is decentralized network that allows settlement of payments.
>
> 2.Bitcoin uses UTXO model while Ethereum uses Account model. Basic difference in transactions for two is explained in an article https://coinmetrics.io/on-data-and-certainty/. Irony is the website in the slides for screenshot is using Coinmetrics API and this misleading website is even shared by Coinmetrics team on Twitter. So in some cases you are doing more transactions, paying more fees for work which could have been done with less. Inefficiency.
>
> 3.Failed transactions paying fees on Ethereum everyday, no such transactions on Bitcoin.
>
> 4.Other improvements that affect fees: Segwit, Layer 2, Batching, UTXO consolidation, Fee estimation, Coin selection, Exchanges, Wallets etc.
>
>
> --
> Prayank
>
> A3B1 E430 2298 178F
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev