Greg Sanders [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2023-03-13 🗒️ Summary of this message: A proposed ...
📅 Original date posted:2023-03-13
🗒️ Summary of this message: A proposed improvement to Bitcoin's OP_VAULT draft suggests a new approach for day-to-day use, which would harm privacy less and require a new address format.
📝 Original message:Didn't finish sentence: but in practice would end up with pretty similar
usage flows imho, and as noted in PR, would take a different wallet
paradigm,
among other technical challenges.
On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 10:55 AM Greg Sanders <gsanders87 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Luke,
>
> Can you elaborate why the current idealized functionality of deposit ->
> trigger -> withdrawal is too complicated for
> everyday use but the above deposit -> withdrawal ->
> resolve(claim/clawback) wouldn't be? I admit at a high level
> it's a fine paradigm, but in practice would end
>
> Let's ignore implementation for the discussion, since that's in flux.
>
> Cheers,
> Greg
>
> On Sat, Mar 11, 2023 at 3:53 PM Luke Dashjr via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> I started reviewing the BIP, but stopped part way through, as it seems
>> to have a number of conceptual issues.
>>
>> I left several comments on the PR
>> (https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/1421#pullrequestreview-1335925575),
>>
>> but ultimately I think it isn't simplified enough for day-to-day use,
>> and would harm privacy quite a bit.
>>
>> Instead, I would suggest a new approach where:
>>
>> 1) Joe receives funds with a taproot output like normal.
>> 2) Joe sends funds to Fred, but Fred cannot spend them until N blocks
>> later (covenant-enforced relative locktime). Ideally, this should
>> use/support a taproot keypath spend somehow. It would be nice to blind
>> the particular relative locktime somehow too, but that may be too
>> expensive.
>> 2b) If Joe's funds were stolen, Joe can spend Fred's UTXO within the N
>> block window to a recovery output.
>>
>> Unfortunately, the implementation details for this kind of setup are
>> non-obvious and will likely require yet another address format (or at
>> least recipient-wallet changes), but certainly seems within the scope of
>> possibility.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Luke
>>
>>
>> On 2/13/23 16:09, James O'Beirne via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>> > Since the last related correspondence on this list [0], a number of
>> > improvements have been made to the OP_VAULT draft [1]:
>> >
>> > * There is no longer a hard dependence on package relay/ephemeral
>> > anchors for fee management. When using "authorized recovery," all
>> > vault-related transactions can be bundled with unrelated inputs and
>> > outputs, facilitating fee management that is self contained to the
>> > transaction. Consequently, the contents of this proposal are in theory
>> > usable today.
>> >
>> > * Specific output locations are no longer hardcoded in any of the
>> > transaction validation algorithms. This means that the proposal is now
>> > compatible with future changes like SIGHASH_GROUP, and
>> > transaction shapes for vault operations are more flexible.
>> >
>> > ---
>> >
>> > I've written a BIP that fully describes the proposal here:
>> >
>> >
>> https://github.com/jamesob/bips/blob/jamesob-23-02-opvault/bip-vaults.mediawiki
>> >
>> > The corresponding PR is here:
>> >
>> > https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/1421
>> >
>> > My next steps will be to try for a merge to the inquisition repo.
>> >
>> > Thanks to everyone who has participated so far, but especially to AJ and
>> > Greg for all the advice.
>> >
>> > James
>> >
>> > [0]:
>> >
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2023-January/021318.html
>> > [1]: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26857
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> > bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>
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🗒️ Summary of this message: A proposed improvement to Bitcoin's OP_VAULT draft suggests a new approach for day-to-day use, which would harm privacy less and require a new address format.
📝 Original message:Didn't finish sentence: but in practice would end up with pretty similar
usage flows imho, and as noted in PR, would take a different wallet
paradigm,
among other technical challenges.
On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 10:55 AM Greg Sanders <gsanders87 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Luke,
>
> Can you elaborate why the current idealized functionality of deposit ->
> trigger -> withdrawal is too complicated for
> everyday use but the above deposit -> withdrawal ->
> resolve(claim/clawback) wouldn't be? I admit at a high level
> it's a fine paradigm, but in practice would end
>
> Let's ignore implementation for the discussion, since that's in flux.
>
> Cheers,
> Greg
>
> On Sat, Mar 11, 2023 at 3:53 PM Luke Dashjr via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> I started reviewing the BIP, but stopped part way through, as it seems
>> to have a number of conceptual issues.
>>
>> I left several comments on the PR
>> (https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/1421#pullrequestreview-1335925575),
>>
>> but ultimately I think it isn't simplified enough for day-to-day use,
>> and would harm privacy quite a bit.
>>
>> Instead, I would suggest a new approach where:
>>
>> 1) Joe receives funds with a taproot output like normal.
>> 2) Joe sends funds to Fred, but Fred cannot spend them until N blocks
>> later (covenant-enforced relative locktime). Ideally, this should
>> use/support a taproot keypath spend somehow. It would be nice to blind
>> the particular relative locktime somehow too, but that may be too
>> expensive.
>> 2b) If Joe's funds were stolen, Joe can spend Fred's UTXO within the N
>> block window to a recovery output.
>>
>> Unfortunately, the implementation details for this kind of setup are
>> non-obvious and will likely require yet another address format (or at
>> least recipient-wallet changes), but certainly seems within the scope of
>> possibility.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Luke
>>
>>
>> On 2/13/23 16:09, James O'Beirne via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>> > Since the last related correspondence on this list [0], a number of
>> > improvements have been made to the OP_VAULT draft [1]:
>> >
>> > * There is no longer a hard dependence on package relay/ephemeral
>> > anchors for fee management. When using "authorized recovery," all
>> > vault-related transactions can be bundled with unrelated inputs and
>> > outputs, facilitating fee management that is self contained to the
>> > transaction. Consequently, the contents of this proposal are in theory
>> > usable today.
>> >
>> > * Specific output locations are no longer hardcoded in any of the
>> > transaction validation algorithms. This means that the proposal is now
>> > compatible with future changes like SIGHASH_GROUP, and
>> > transaction shapes for vault operations are more flexible.
>> >
>> > ---
>> >
>> > I've written a BIP that fully describes the proposal here:
>> >
>> >
>> https://github.com/jamesob/bips/blob/jamesob-23-02-opvault/bip-vaults.mediawiki
>> >
>> > The corresponding PR is here:
>> >
>> > https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/1421
>> >
>> > My next steps will be to try for a merge to the inquisition repo.
>> >
>> > Thanks to everyone who has participated so far, but especially to AJ and
>> > Greg for all the advice.
>> >
>> > James
>> >
>> > [0]:
>> >
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2023-January/021318.html
>> > [1]: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26857
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> > bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>
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