Ilan Oh [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2017-12-11 📝 Original message:Reply to dead man's ...
📅 Original date posted:2017-12-11
📝 Original message:Reply to dead man's switch,
Since this topic as gone un-technical,
People can already place a timer on transactions with the script to send
funds if not moved for a given period,
And people are responsible adults, trying to take ahead of every possible
future human error from the protocol perspective looks more like french
socialism than bitcoinism
Le 11 déc. 2017 19:32, <bitcoin-dev-request at lists.linuxfoundation.org> a
écrit :
Send bitcoin-dev mailing list submissions to
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
bitcoin-dev-request at lists.linuxfoundation.org
You can reach the person managing the list at
bitcoin-dev-owner at lists.linuxfoundation.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of bitcoin-dev digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: BIP - Dead Man's Switch (Radoslaw Biernacki)
2. Re: BIP - Dead Man's Switch (Pieter Wuille)
3. Re: BIP - Dead Man's Switch (Chris Riley)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 19:13:26 +0100
From: Radoslaw Biernacki <radoslaw.biernacki at gmail.com>
To: Teweldemedhin Aberra <teweldemat at gmail.com>, Bitcoin Protocol
Discussion <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP - Dead Man's Switch
Message-ID:
<CADp3C4vfL8yE4C8T5nU_qpOOLkDP+eMwM_pXmbdB0Nj0vbJHUg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Aside from that such change would require a hard fork it also violates one
of basic rules of bitcoin, which has long term consequences for miners and
for whole Bitcoin economy. In short, after altering the supply limit it
would not be "bitcoin" anymore.
On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 6:30 PM, Teweldemedhin Aberra via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> It is estimated that about 4 million of the about 16.4 Bitcoins ever mined
> are lost forever because no one knows the private keys of some Bitcoin
> addresses. This effectively mean there are actually only 14.4 million
> Bitcoins in circulation even though 16.4 million are mined. There is no
way
> of eliminating the human errors that cause these losses of Bitcoin from
> circulation, while the number of Bitcoin that will ever be mined is capped
> at 21 million. This means the total number of Bitcoins that are in
> circulation will eventually become zero, bringing the network to an end.
>
> The solution this BIP proposes is to implementing a dead man's switch to
> Bitcoin addresses. The dead man's switch causes the Bitcoins assigned to
> dormant addresses to automatically expire. A Bitcoin address is deemed
> dormant if it is not used in transactions for some fixed length of time,
> say ten years.
>
> The calculation of the miner's reward should take into account the
> Bitcoins that has expired. This means there is a possibility that miner's
> reward can increase if sufficient number of Bitcoins expire.
>
> Ref:
>
> http://fortune.com/2017/11/25/lost-bitcoins/
>
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link>
> <#m_-612306741899295358_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/
attachments/20171211/82180950/attachment-0001.html>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 10:26:40 -0800
From: Pieter Wuille <pieter.wuille at gmail.com>
To: Nick Pudar <nick at pudar.com>, Bitcoin Dev
<bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP - Dead Man's Switch
Message-ID:
<CAPg+sBi9nYHCcN8ct=_iqWuxDFU1cPwBfbfF8WPX-w+kf6hzfQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
On Dec 11, 2017 10:23, "Nick Pudar via bitcoin-dev" <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
This topic has come up several times in recent years. While it is well
intentioned, it can have devastating outcomes for people that want to save
long term. If such a system were implemented, it would force people to move
funds around in order to not get nullified. In that process, it introduces
multiple opportunities for errors. Cold storage should be able to stay
cold. I personally would be apprehensive about implementing this kind of a
system.
Furthermore, if it rewards miners with funds that are expired, it creates
terrible incentives. Miners in their best interest could choose to censor
transactions that move funds close to their expiration time, to increase
their own future rewards.
Cheers,
--
Pieter
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/
attachments/20171211/e43f4baa/attachment-0001.html>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 13:28:03 -0500
From: Chris Riley <criley at gmail.com>
To: Teweldemedhin Aberra <teweldemat at gmail.com>, Bitcoin Protocol
Discussion <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP - Dead Man's Switch
Message-ID:
<CAL5BAw1ayaiD07PJ4MRqcKaXdet5KW131en69vbw5gebWTF8nA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hi,
1. If there are 16.4 million mined and 4 million are lost, that results in
12.4 million in circulation vs 14.4 million.
2. Satoshi addressed this as have numerous other people (
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=198.msg1647#msg1647 ) - lost coins
decrease supply, increasing value of the remaining coins.
3. This assumes this is a problem. Bitcoin is divisible, 100 million,
potentially more if necessary. (
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Help:FAQ#How_divisible_are_bitcoins.3F)
4. Why is it okay to steal bitcoins from people who's bitcoins have been
"dormant" for a fixed period, 10 years in your example?
5. What happens to bitcoins that, say, Hal Finney still had (if any) and he
put in cold storage while he is in ultimate cold storage (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Finney_(computer_scientist)#Death) ?
Ditto for someone, say, in a coma for 11 years, in jail for 11 years or any
other similar event? Or a 20 year old sets aside coins for retirement.
The following year, the system is changed, and when he looks again after
not paying attention for a decade or two, they are gone.
6. This encourages censorship by miners for people attempting to move coins.
7. This has been discussed many times before and everyone is welcome to
fork bitcoin code and the block chain and convince people to follow this
chain and code. Then you can see if you can get many people to agree that
this is a good idea.
On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 12:30 PM, Teweldemedhin Aberra via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> It is estimated that about 4 million of the about 16.4 Bitcoins ever mined
> are lost forever because no one knows the private keys of some Bitcoin
> addresses. This effectively mean there are actually only 14.4 million
> Bitcoins in circulation even though 16.4 million are mined. There is no
way
> of eliminating the human errors that cause these losses of Bitcoin from
> circulation, while the number of Bitcoin that will ever be mined is capped
> at 21 million. This means the total number of Bitcoins that are in
> circulation will eventually become zero, bringing the network to an end.
>
> The solution this BIP proposes is to implementing a dead man's switch to
> Bitcoin addresses. The dead man's switch causes the Bitcoins assigned to
> dormant addresses to automatically expire. A Bitcoin address is deemed
> dormant if it is not used in transactions for some fixed length of time,
> say ten years.
>
> The calculation of the miner's reward should take into account the
> Bitcoins that has expired. This means there is a possibility that miner's
> reward can increase if sufficient number of Bitcoins expire.
>
> Ref:
>
> http://fortune.com/2017/11/25/lost-bitcoins/
>
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link>
> <#m_2495265241835744459_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/
attachments/20171211/bae02d55/attachment.html>
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
End of bitcoin-dev Digest, Vol 31, Issue 22
*******************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20171211/f7f49918/attachment-0001.html>;
📝 Original message:Reply to dead man's switch,
Since this topic as gone un-technical,
People can already place a timer on transactions with the script to send
funds if not moved for a given period,
And people are responsible adults, trying to take ahead of every possible
future human error from the protocol perspective looks more like french
socialism than bitcoinism
Le 11 déc. 2017 19:32, <bitcoin-dev-request at lists.linuxfoundation.org> a
écrit :
Send bitcoin-dev mailing list submissions to
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
bitcoin-dev-request at lists.linuxfoundation.org
You can reach the person managing the list at
bitcoin-dev-owner at lists.linuxfoundation.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of bitcoin-dev digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: BIP - Dead Man's Switch (Radoslaw Biernacki)
2. Re: BIP - Dead Man's Switch (Pieter Wuille)
3. Re: BIP - Dead Man's Switch (Chris Riley)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 19:13:26 +0100
From: Radoslaw Biernacki <radoslaw.biernacki at gmail.com>
To: Teweldemedhin Aberra <teweldemat at gmail.com>, Bitcoin Protocol
Discussion <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP - Dead Man's Switch
Message-ID:
<CADp3C4vfL8yE4C8T5nU_qpOOLkDP+eMwM_pXmbdB0Nj0vbJHUg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Aside from that such change would require a hard fork it also violates one
of basic rules of bitcoin, which has long term consequences for miners and
for whole Bitcoin economy. In short, after altering the supply limit it
would not be "bitcoin" anymore.
On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 6:30 PM, Teweldemedhin Aberra via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> It is estimated that about 4 million of the about 16.4 Bitcoins ever mined
> are lost forever because no one knows the private keys of some Bitcoin
> addresses. This effectively mean there are actually only 14.4 million
> Bitcoins in circulation even though 16.4 million are mined. There is no
way
> of eliminating the human errors that cause these losses of Bitcoin from
> circulation, while the number of Bitcoin that will ever be mined is capped
> at 21 million. This means the total number of Bitcoins that are in
> circulation will eventually become zero, bringing the network to an end.
>
> The solution this BIP proposes is to implementing a dead man's switch to
> Bitcoin addresses. The dead man's switch causes the Bitcoins assigned to
> dormant addresses to automatically expire. A Bitcoin address is deemed
> dormant if it is not used in transactions for some fixed length of time,
> say ten years.
>
> The calculation of the miner's reward should take into account the
> Bitcoins that has expired. This means there is a possibility that miner's
> reward can increase if sufficient number of Bitcoins expire.
>
> Ref:
>
> http://fortune.com/2017/11/25/lost-bitcoins/
>
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link>
> <#m_-612306741899295358_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/
attachments/20171211/82180950/attachment-0001.html>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 10:26:40 -0800
From: Pieter Wuille <pieter.wuille at gmail.com>
To: Nick Pudar <nick at pudar.com>, Bitcoin Dev
<bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP - Dead Man's Switch
Message-ID:
<CAPg+sBi9nYHCcN8ct=_iqWuxDFU1cPwBfbfF8WPX-w+kf6hzfQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
On Dec 11, 2017 10:23, "Nick Pudar via bitcoin-dev" <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
This topic has come up several times in recent years. While it is well
intentioned, it can have devastating outcomes for people that want to save
long term. If such a system were implemented, it would force people to move
funds around in order to not get nullified. In that process, it introduces
multiple opportunities for errors. Cold storage should be able to stay
cold. I personally would be apprehensive about implementing this kind of a
system.
Furthermore, if it rewards miners with funds that are expired, it creates
terrible incentives. Miners in their best interest could choose to censor
transactions that move funds close to their expiration time, to increase
their own future rewards.
Cheers,
--
Pieter
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/
attachments/20171211/e43f4baa/attachment-0001.html>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 13:28:03 -0500
From: Chris Riley <criley at gmail.com>
To: Teweldemedhin Aberra <teweldemat at gmail.com>, Bitcoin Protocol
Discussion <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP - Dead Man's Switch
Message-ID:
<CAL5BAw1ayaiD07PJ4MRqcKaXdet5KW131en69vbw5gebWTF8nA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hi,
1. If there are 16.4 million mined and 4 million are lost, that results in
12.4 million in circulation vs 14.4 million.
2. Satoshi addressed this as have numerous other people (
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=198.msg1647#msg1647 ) - lost coins
decrease supply, increasing value of the remaining coins.
3. This assumes this is a problem. Bitcoin is divisible, 100 million,
potentially more if necessary. (
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Help:FAQ#How_divisible_are_bitcoins.3F)
4. Why is it okay to steal bitcoins from people who's bitcoins have been
"dormant" for a fixed period, 10 years in your example?
5. What happens to bitcoins that, say, Hal Finney still had (if any) and he
put in cold storage while he is in ultimate cold storage (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Finney_(computer_scientist)#Death) ?
Ditto for someone, say, in a coma for 11 years, in jail for 11 years or any
other similar event? Or a 20 year old sets aside coins for retirement.
The following year, the system is changed, and when he looks again after
not paying attention for a decade or two, they are gone.
6. This encourages censorship by miners for people attempting to move coins.
7. This has been discussed many times before and everyone is welcome to
fork bitcoin code and the block chain and convince people to follow this
chain and code. Then you can see if you can get many people to agree that
this is a good idea.
On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 12:30 PM, Teweldemedhin Aberra via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> It is estimated that about 4 million of the about 16.4 Bitcoins ever mined
> are lost forever because no one knows the private keys of some Bitcoin
> addresses. This effectively mean there are actually only 14.4 million
> Bitcoins in circulation even though 16.4 million are mined. There is no
way
> of eliminating the human errors that cause these losses of Bitcoin from
> circulation, while the number of Bitcoin that will ever be mined is capped
> at 21 million. This means the total number of Bitcoins that are in
> circulation will eventually become zero, bringing the network to an end.
>
> The solution this BIP proposes is to implementing a dead man's switch to
> Bitcoin addresses. The dead man's switch causes the Bitcoins assigned to
> dormant addresses to automatically expire. A Bitcoin address is deemed
> dormant if it is not used in transactions for some fixed length of time,
> say ten years.
>
> The calculation of the miner's reward should take into account the
> Bitcoins that has expired. This means there is a possibility that miner's
> reward can increase if sufficient number of Bitcoins expire.
>
> Ref:
>
> http://fortune.com/2017/11/25/lost-bitcoins/
>
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link>
> <#m_2495265241835744459_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/
attachments/20171211/bae02d55/attachment.html>
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
End of bitcoin-dev Digest, Vol 31, Issue 22
*******************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20171211/f7f49918/attachment-0001.html>;