Dave Scotese [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2016-01-19 📝 Original message:This seems like a good ...
📅 Original date posted:2016-01-19
📝 Original message:This seems like a good place to point out that attempts to identify
individuals (either by name or simply as an individual human being) are
futile as well as destructive. "1%" usually means "one out of every 100
people" but this requires identification of individuals as individuals.
One person can look like many in Bitcoin, which is why such an effort is
futile. Additionally, one person may be far more affected by a decision
than others, which is why it's destructive.
I like the idea of measuring consensus, and there are proto-ideas in my
head about how that can be done, based not on individual people, but on
amounts of bitcoin. Many will argue that we don't want the system to be
controlled by those who hold the most bitcoin. I understand that
sentiment, but A) I simply disagree, and B) Finding something better seems
impossible to me.
A simple method is the following:
A message can be constructed saying: "As of block X, the holder(s) of Y BTC
controlled by [public key] agrees that Z," where X, Y, Z, and the [public
key] are the only things that change. This message can be signed by the
private key matching the [public key] in the message. Anyone interested in
measuring consensus on anything relative to bitcoin holders can advertise
for such signed messages to be sent to a repository of their choice which
would validate each message (that [public key] (still) holds Y BTC and that
the signature is valid) and provide a measure of agreement about Z. Change
your mind? Just move your BTC to a different address.
On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 6:12 PM, Luke Dashjr via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> On Saturday, September 05, 2015 9:19:51 PM Andy Chase wrote:
> > Okay for sure yeah writing another proposal that reflects the current
> state
> > of affairs as people see it might provide some interesting perspective on
> > this proposal. I would welcome that.
>
> Are you saying your proposal is intentionally not intended to reflect the
> reality? I wasn't talking about a "current state of affairs" for BIPs as
> much
> as that that the acceptance of BIPs is *defined by* the state of affairs.
>
> Overall, I think something *similar to* this proposal is a good idea, but I
> disagree with how this proposal currently approaches the problem. Instead,
> what I would recommend is a specification based on BIP 123 that specifies
> the
> conditions under which a proposal is *known to be* accepted by the
> community
> (ie, discerning, not deciding), and establishes a way for a committee to
> review the BIP and *determine* if these conditions have been met. This
> would
> avoid a "disconnect" between the "official status" and reality, making the
> BIP
> process more useful to everyone.
>
> Reviewing your current proposal:
>
> > * It sets up '''committees''' for reviewing comments and indicating
> > acceptance under precise conditions.
>
> As mentioned, IMO a committee shouldn't be indicating acceptance, as much
> as
> it should be *determining* acceptance.
>
> > ** Committees are authorized groups that represent client authors,
> miners,
> > merchants, and users (each as a segment). Each one must represent at
> least
> > 1% stake in the Bitcoin ecosystem.
>
> 1% seems like an awful lot to dedicate to BIP status changes.
>
> > A committee system is used to organize the essential concerns of each
> > segment of the Bitcoin ecosystem. Although each segment may have many
> > different viewpoints on each BIP, in order to seek a decisive yes/no on a
> > BIP, a representational authoritative structure is sought. This structure
> > should be fluid, allowing people to move away from committees that do not
> > reflect their views and should be re-validated on each BIP evaluation.
>
> That sounds very time consuming. And what happens if these committees don't
> represent the community? What about when only part of the community - let's
> say 10% - decides to adopt a BIP that doesn't require consensus? Logically
> that BIP should still proceed...
>
> > ** Proof of claim and minimum 1% stake via:
> > *** Software: proof of ownership and user base (Min 1% of Bitcoin
> userbase)
>
> But the Bitcoin user base is completely unknown, and tracking software user
> base is a privacy violation.
>
> > ** Merchant: proof of economic activity (Min 1% of Bitcoin economic
> > activity)
>
> Bitcoin economic activity is also unknown, and it seems likely that
> merchants
> consider their own activity confidential.
>
> > Mining: proof of work (Min 1% of Hashpower)
>
> This needs a proper specification. How do miners express their positions?
>
> > A BIP Process Manager should be chosen who is in charge of:
>
> Chosen how, and by whom?
>
> > == Conditions for activation ==
> >
> > In order for this process BIP to become active, it must succeed by its
> own
> > rules. At least a 4% sample of the Bitcoin community must be represented,
> > with at least one committee in each segment included. Once at least one
> > committee has submitted a declaration, a request for comments will be
> called
> > and the process should be completed from there.
>
> Until this BIP is active, its rules do not apply, so this would be a form
> of
> circular reasoning. I like the idea of putting conditions for activation in
> the BIP text, but I don't think we can just let the author set any
> conditions
> they like either...
>
> Luke
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
--
I like to provide some work at no charge to prove my value. Do you need a
techie?
I own Litmocracy <http://www.litmocracy.com>; and Meme Racing
<http://www.memeracing.net>; (in alpha).
I'm the webmaster for The Voluntaryist <http://www.voluntaryist.com>; which
now accepts Bitcoin.
I also code for The Dollar Vigilante <http://dollarvigilante.com/>;.
"He ought to find it more profitable to play by the rules" - Satoshi
Nakamoto
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📝 Original message:This seems like a good place to point out that attempts to identify
individuals (either by name or simply as an individual human being) are
futile as well as destructive. "1%" usually means "one out of every 100
people" but this requires identification of individuals as individuals.
One person can look like many in Bitcoin, which is why such an effort is
futile. Additionally, one person may be far more affected by a decision
than others, which is why it's destructive.
I like the idea of measuring consensus, and there are proto-ideas in my
head about how that can be done, based not on individual people, but on
amounts of bitcoin. Many will argue that we don't want the system to be
controlled by those who hold the most bitcoin. I understand that
sentiment, but A) I simply disagree, and B) Finding something better seems
impossible to me.
A simple method is the following:
A message can be constructed saying: "As of block X, the holder(s) of Y BTC
controlled by [public key] agrees that Z," where X, Y, Z, and the [public
key] are the only things that change. This message can be signed by the
private key matching the [public key] in the message. Anyone interested in
measuring consensus on anything relative to bitcoin holders can advertise
for such signed messages to be sent to a repository of their choice which
would validate each message (that [public key] (still) holds Y BTC and that
the signature is valid) and provide a measure of agreement about Z. Change
your mind? Just move your BTC to a different address.
On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 6:12 PM, Luke Dashjr via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> On Saturday, September 05, 2015 9:19:51 PM Andy Chase wrote:
> > Okay for sure yeah writing another proposal that reflects the current
> state
> > of affairs as people see it might provide some interesting perspective on
> > this proposal. I would welcome that.
>
> Are you saying your proposal is intentionally not intended to reflect the
> reality? I wasn't talking about a "current state of affairs" for BIPs as
> much
> as that that the acceptance of BIPs is *defined by* the state of affairs.
>
> Overall, I think something *similar to* this proposal is a good idea, but I
> disagree with how this proposal currently approaches the problem. Instead,
> what I would recommend is a specification based on BIP 123 that specifies
> the
> conditions under which a proposal is *known to be* accepted by the
> community
> (ie, discerning, not deciding), and establishes a way for a committee to
> review the BIP and *determine* if these conditions have been met. This
> would
> avoid a "disconnect" between the "official status" and reality, making the
> BIP
> process more useful to everyone.
>
> Reviewing your current proposal:
>
> > * It sets up '''committees''' for reviewing comments and indicating
> > acceptance under precise conditions.
>
> As mentioned, IMO a committee shouldn't be indicating acceptance, as much
> as
> it should be *determining* acceptance.
>
> > ** Committees are authorized groups that represent client authors,
> miners,
> > merchants, and users (each as a segment). Each one must represent at
> least
> > 1% stake in the Bitcoin ecosystem.
>
> 1% seems like an awful lot to dedicate to BIP status changes.
>
> > A committee system is used to organize the essential concerns of each
> > segment of the Bitcoin ecosystem. Although each segment may have many
> > different viewpoints on each BIP, in order to seek a decisive yes/no on a
> > BIP, a representational authoritative structure is sought. This structure
> > should be fluid, allowing people to move away from committees that do not
> > reflect their views and should be re-validated on each BIP evaluation.
>
> That sounds very time consuming. And what happens if these committees don't
> represent the community? What about when only part of the community - let's
> say 10% - decides to adopt a BIP that doesn't require consensus? Logically
> that BIP should still proceed...
>
> > ** Proof of claim and minimum 1% stake via:
> > *** Software: proof of ownership and user base (Min 1% of Bitcoin
> userbase)
>
> But the Bitcoin user base is completely unknown, and tracking software user
> base is a privacy violation.
>
> > ** Merchant: proof of economic activity (Min 1% of Bitcoin economic
> > activity)
>
> Bitcoin economic activity is also unknown, and it seems likely that
> merchants
> consider their own activity confidential.
>
> > Mining: proof of work (Min 1% of Hashpower)
>
> This needs a proper specification. How do miners express their positions?
>
> > A BIP Process Manager should be chosen who is in charge of:
>
> Chosen how, and by whom?
>
> > == Conditions for activation ==
> >
> > In order for this process BIP to become active, it must succeed by its
> own
> > rules. At least a 4% sample of the Bitcoin community must be represented,
> > with at least one committee in each segment included. Once at least one
> > committee has submitted a declaration, a request for comments will be
> called
> > and the process should be completed from there.
>
> Until this BIP is active, its rules do not apply, so this would be a form
> of
> circular reasoning. I like the idea of putting conditions for activation in
> the BIP text, but I don't think we can just let the author set any
> conditions
> they like either...
>
> Luke
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
--
I like to provide some work at no charge to prove my value. Do you need a
techie?
I own Litmocracy <http://www.litmocracy.com>; and Meme Racing
<http://www.memeracing.net>; (in alpha).
I'm the webmaster for The Voluntaryist <http://www.voluntaryist.com>; which
now accepts Bitcoin.
I also code for The Dollar Vigilante <http://dollarvigilante.com/>;.
"He ought to find it more profitable to play by the rules" - Satoshi
Nakamoto
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