Jeremy [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2019-10-04 📝 Original message:Awhile back, Ethan and I ...
📅 Original date posted:2019-10-04
📝 Original message:Awhile back, Ethan and I discussed having, rather than OP_CAT, an
OP_SHA256STREAM that uses the streaming properties of a SHA256 hash
function to allow concatenation of an unlimited amount of data, provided
the only use is to hash it.
You can then use it perhaps as follows:
// start a new hash with item
OP_SHA256STREAM (-1) -> [state]
// Add item to the hash in state
OP_SHA256STREAM n [item] [state] -> [state]
// Finalize
OP_SHA256STREAM (-2) [state] -> [Hash]
<-1> OP_SHA256STREAM <tag> <subnode 2> <subnode 3> <3> OP_SHA256STREAM <-2>
OP_SHA256STREAM
Or it coul
--
@JeremyRubin <https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin>;
<https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin>;
On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 8:04 PM Ethan Heilman <eth3rs at gmail.com> wrote:
> I hope you are having an great afternoon ZmnSCPxj,
>
> You make an excellent point!
>
> I had thought about doing the following to tag nodes
>
> || means OP_CAT
>
> `node = SHA256(type||SHA256(data))`
> so a subnode would be
> `subnode1 = SHA256(1||SHA256(subnode2||subnode3))`
> and a leaf node would be
> `leafnode = SHA256(0||SHA256(leafdata))`
>
> Yet, I like your idea better. Increasing the size of the two inputs to
> OP_CAT to be 260 Bytes each where 520 Bytes is the maximum allowable
> size of object on the stack seems sensible and also doesn't special
> case the logic of OP_CAT.
>
> It would also increase performance. SHA256(tag||subnode2||subnode3)
> requires 2 compression function calls whereas
> SHA256(1||SHA256(subnode2||subnode3)) requires 2+1=3 compression
> function calls (due to padding).
>
> >Or we could implement tagged SHA256 as a new opcode...
>
> I agree that tagged SHA256 as an op code that would certainty be
> useful, but OP_CAT provides far more utility and is a simpler change.
>
> Thanks,
> Ethan
>
> On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 7:42 PM ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj at protonmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Good morning Ethan,
> >
> >
> > > To avoid derailing the NO_INPUT conversation, I have changed the
> > > subject to OP_CAT.
> > >
> > > Responding to:
> > > """
> > >
> > > - `SIGHASH` flags attached to signatures are a misdesign, sadly
> > > retained from the original BitCoin 0.1.0 Alpha for Windows design,
> on
> > > par with:
> > > [..]
> > >
> > > - `OP_CAT` and `OP_MULT` and `OP_ADD` and friends
> > > [..]
> > > """
> > >
> > > OP_CAT is an extremely valuable op code. I understand why it was
> > > removed as the situation at the time with scripts was dire. However
> > > most of the protocols I've wanted to build on Bitcoin run into the
> > > limitation that stack values can not be concatenated. For instance
> > > TumbleBit would have far smaller transaction sizes if OP_CAT was
> > > supported in Bitcoin. If it happens to me as a researcher it is
> > > probably holding other people back as well. If I could wave a magic
> > > wand and turn on one of the disabled op codes it would be OP_CAT.
> Of
> > > course with the change that size of each concatenated value must
> be 64
> > > Bytes or less.
> >
> > Why 64 bytes in particular?
> >
> > It seems obvious to me that this 64 bytes is most suited for building
> Merkle trees, being the size of two SHA256 hashes.
> >
> > However we have had issues with the use of Merkle trees in Bitcoin
> blocks.
> > Specifically, it is difficult to determine if a hash on a Merkle node is
> the hash of a Merkle subnode, or a leaf transaction.
> > My understanding is that this is the reason for now requiring
> transactions to be at least 80 bytes.
> >
> > The obvious fix would be to prepend the type of the hashed object, i.e.
> add at least one byte to determine this type.
> > Taproot for example uses tagged hash functions, with a different tag for
> leaves, and tagged hashes are just
> prepend-this-32-byte-constant-twice-before-you-SHA256.
> >
> > This seems to indicate that to check merkle tree proofs, an `OP_CAT`
> with only 64 bytes max output size would not be sufficient.
> >
> > Or we could implement tagged SHA256 as a new opcode...
> >
> > Regards,
> > ZmnSCPxj
> >
> >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Oct 1, 2019 at 10:04 PM ZmnSCPxj via bitcoin-dev
> > > bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > Good morning lists,
> > > > Let me propose the below radical idea:
> > > >
> > > > - `SIGHASH` flags attached to signatures are a misdesign, sadly
> retained from the original BitCoin 0.1.0 Alpha for Windows design, on par
> with:
> > > > - 1 RETURN
> > > > - higher-`nSequence` replacement
> > > > - DER-encoded pubkeys
> > > > - unrestricted `scriptPubKey`
> > > > - Payee-security-paid-by-payer (i.e. lack of P2SH)
> > > > - `OP_CAT` and `OP_MULT` and `OP_ADD` and friends
> > > > - transaction malleability
> > > > - probably many more
> > > >
> > > > So let me propose the more radical excision, starting with SegWit v1:
> > > >
> > > > - Remove `SIGHASH` from signatures.
> > > > - Put `SIGHASH` on public keys.
> > > >
> > > > Public keys are now encoded as either 33-bytes (implicit
> `SIGHASH_ALL`) or 34-bytes (`SIGHASH` byte, followed by pubkey type,
> followed by pubkey coordinate).
> > > > `OP_CHECKSIG` and friends then look at the public key to determine
> sighash algorithm rather than the signature.
> > > > As we expect public keys to be indirectly committed to on every
> output `scriptPubKey`, this is automatically output tagging to allow
> particular `SIGHASH`.
> > > > However, we can then utilize the many many ways to hide public keys
> away until they are needed, exemplified in MAST-inside-Taproot.
> > > > I propose also the addition of the opcode:
> > > >
> > > > <sighash> <pubkey> OP_SETPUBKEYSIGHASH
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - `sighash` must be one byte.
> > > > - `pubkey` may be the special byte `0x1`, meaning "just use the
> Taproot internal pubkey".
> > > > - `pubkey` may be 33-byte public key, in which case the `sighash`
> byte is just prepended to it.
> > > > - `pubkey` may be 34-byte public key with sighash, in which case
> the first byte is replaced with `sighash` byte.
> > > > - If `sighash` is `0x00` then the result is a 33-byte public key
> (the sighash byte is removed) i.e. `SIGHASH_ALL` implicit.
> > > >
> > > > This retains the old feature where the sighash is selected at
> time-of-spending rather than time-of-payment.
> > > > This is done by using the script:
> > > >
> > > > <pubkey> OP_SETPUBKEYSIGHASH OP_CHECKSIG
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Then the sighash can be put in the witness stack after the
> signature, letting the `SIGHASH` flag be selected at time-of-signing, but
> only if the SCRIPT specifically is formed to do so.
> > > > This is malleability-safe as the signature still commits to the
> `SIGHASH` it was created for.
> > > > However, by default, public keys will not have an attached `SIGHASH`
> byte, implying `SIGHASH_ALL` (and disallowing-by-default non-`SIGHASH_ALL`).
> > > > This removes the problems with `SIGHASH_NONE` `SIGHASH_SINGLE`, as
> they are allowed only if the output specifically says they are allowed.
> > > > Would this not be a superior solution?
> > > > Regards,
> > > > ZmnSCPxj
> > > >
> > > > bitcoin-dev mailing list
> > > > bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> > > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> > >
> > > Lightning-dev mailing list
> > > Lightning-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lightning-dev
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Lightning-dev mailing list
> Lightning-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lightning-dev
>
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📝 Original message:Awhile back, Ethan and I discussed having, rather than OP_CAT, an
OP_SHA256STREAM that uses the streaming properties of a SHA256 hash
function to allow concatenation of an unlimited amount of data, provided
the only use is to hash it.
You can then use it perhaps as follows:
// start a new hash with item
OP_SHA256STREAM (-1) -> [state]
// Add item to the hash in state
OP_SHA256STREAM n [item] [state] -> [state]
// Finalize
OP_SHA256STREAM (-2) [state] -> [Hash]
<-1> OP_SHA256STREAM <tag> <subnode 2> <subnode 3> <3> OP_SHA256STREAM <-2>
OP_SHA256STREAM
Or it coul
--
@JeremyRubin <https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin>;
<https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin>;
On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 8:04 PM Ethan Heilman <eth3rs at gmail.com> wrote:
> I hope you are having an great afternoon ZmnSCPxj,
>
> You make an excellent point!
>
> I had thought about doing the following to tag nodes
>
> || means OP_CAT
>
> `node = SHA256(type||SHA256(data))`
> so a subnode would be
> `subnode1 = SHA256(1||SHA256(subnode2||subnode3))`
> and a leaf node would be
> `leafnode = SHA256(0||SHA256(leafdata))`
>
> Yet, I like your idea better. Increasing the size of the two inputs to
> OP_CAT to be 260 Bytes each where 520 Bytes is the maximum allowable
> size of object on the stack seems sensible and also doesn't special
> case the logic of OP_CAT.
>
> It would also increase performance. SHA256(tag||subnode2||subnode3)
> requires 2 compression function calls whereas
> SHA256(1||SHA256(subnode2||subnode3)) requires 2+1=3 compression
> function calls (due to padding).
>
> >Or we could implement tagged SHA256 as a new opcode...
>
> I agree that tagged SHA256 as an op code that would certainty be
> useful, but OP_CAT provides far more utility and is a simpler change.
>
> Thanks,
> Ethan
>
> On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 7:42 PM ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj at protonmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Good morning Ethan,
> >
> >
> > > To avoid derailing the NO_INPUT conversation, I have changed the
> > > subject to OP_CAT.
> > >
> > > Responding to:
> > > """
> > >
> > > - `SIGHASH` flags attached to signatures are a misdesign, sadly
> > > retained from the original BitCoin 0.1.0 Alpha for Windows design,
> on
> > > par with:
> > > [..]
> > >
> > > - `OP_CAT` and `OP_MULT` and `OP_ADD` and friends
> > > [..]
> > > """
> > >
> > > OP_CAT is an extremely valuable op code. I understand why it was
> > > removed as the situation at the time with scripts was dire. However
> > > most of the protocols I've wanted to build on Bitcoin run into the
> > > limitation that stack values can not be concatenated. For instance
> > > TumbleBit would have far smaller transaction sizes if OP_CAT was
> > > supported in Bitcoin. If it happens to me as a researcher it is
> > > probably holding other people back as well. If I could wave a magic
> > > wand and turn on one of the disabled op codes it would be OP_CAT.
> Of
> > > course with the change that size of each concatenated value must
> be 64
> > > Bytes or less.
> >
> > Why 64 bytes in particular?
> >
> > It seems obvious to me that this 64 bytes is most suited for building
> Merkle trees, being the size of two SHA256 hashes.
> >
> > However we have had issues with the use of Merkle trees in Bitcoin
> blocks.
> > Specifically, it is difficult to determine if a hash on a Merkle node is
> the hash of a Merkle subnode, or a leaf transaction.
> > My understanding is that this is the reason for now requiring
> transactions to be at least 80 bytes.
> >
> > The obvious fix would be to prepend the type of the hashed object, i.e.
> add at least one byte to determine this type.
> > Taproot for example uses tagged hash functions, with a different tag for
> leaves, and tagged hashes are just
> prepend-this-32-byte-constant-twice-before-you-SHA256.
> >
> > This seems to indicate that to check merkle tree proofs, an `OP_CAT`
> with only 64 bytes max output size would not be sufficient.
> >
> > Or we could implement tagged SHA256 as a new opcode...
> >
> > Regards,
> > ZmnSCPxj
> >
> >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Oct 1, 2019 at 10:04 PM ZmnSCPxj via bitcoin-dev
> > > bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > Good morning lists,
> > > > Let me propose the below radical idea:
> > > >
> > > > - `SIGHASH` flags attached to signatures are a misdesign, sadly
> retained from the original BitCoin 0.1.0 Alpha for Windows design, on par
> with:
> > > > - 1 RETURN
> > > > - higher-`nSequence` replacement
> > > > - DER-encoded pubkeys
> > > > - unrestricted `scriptPubKey`
> > > > - Payee-security-paid-by-payer (i.e. lack of P2SH)
> > > > - `OP_CAT` and `OP_MULT` and `OP_ADD` and friends
> > > > - transaction malleability
> > > > - probably many more
> > > >
> > > > So let me propose the more radical excision, starting with SegWit v1:
> > > >
> > > > - Remove `SIGHASH` from signatures.
> > > > - Put `SIGHASH` on public keys.
> > > >
> > > > Public keys are now encoded as either 33-bytes (implicit
> `SIGHASH_ALL`) or 34-bytes (`SIGHASH` byte, followed by pubkey type,
> followed by pubkey coordinate).
> > > > `OP_CHECKSIG` and friends then look at the public key to determine
> sighash algorithm rather than the signature.
> > > > As we expect public keys to be indirectly committed to on every
> output `scriptPubKey`, this is automatically output tagging to allow
> particular `SIGHASH`.
> > > > However, we can then utilize the many many ways to hide public keys
> away until they are needed, exemplified in MAST-inside-Taproot.
> > > > I propose also the addition of the opcode:
> > > >
> > > > <sighash> <pubkey> OP_SETPUBKEYSIGHASH
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - `sighash` must be one byte.
> > > > - `pubkey` may be the special byte `0x1`, meaning "just use the
> Taproot internal pubkey".
> > > > - `pubkey` may be 33-byte public key, in which case the `sighash`
> byte is just prepended to it.
> > > > - `pubkey` may be 34-byte public key with sighash, in which case
> the first byte is replaced with `sighash` byte.
> > > > - If `sighash` is `0x00` then the result is a 33-byte public key
> (the sighash byte is removed) i.e. `SIGHASH_ALL` implicit.
> > > >
> > > > This retains the old feature where the sighash is selected at
> time-of-spending rather than time-of-payment.
> > > > This is done by using the script:
> > > >
> > > > <pubkey> OP_SETPUBKEYSIGHASH OP_CHECKSIG
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Then the sighash can be put in the witness stack after the
> signature, letting the `SIGHASH` flag be selected at time-of-signing, but
> only if the SCRIPT specifically is formed to do so.
> > > > This is malleability-safe as the signature still commits to the
> `SIGHASH` it was created for.
> > > > However, by default, public keys will not have an attached `SIGHASH`
> byte, implying `SIGHASH_ALL` (and disallowing-by-default non-`SIGHASH_ALL`).
> > > > This removes the problems with `SIGHASH_NONE` `SIGHASH_SINGLE`, as
> they are allowed only if the output specifically says they are allowed.
> > > > Would this not be a superior solution?
> > > > Regards,
> > > > ZmnSCPxj
> > > >
> > > > bitcoin-dev mailing list
> > > > bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> > > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> > >
> > > Lightning-dev mailing list
> > > Lightning-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lightning-dev
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Lightning-dev mailing list
> Lightning-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lightning-dev
>
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