Paul Sztorc [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2017-05-22 📝 Original message:Charlie, I'll be mostly in ...
📅 Original date posted:2017-05-22
📝 Original message:Charlie, I'll be mostly in the tech track, of course. And I've already
planned to meet RSK guys after their event tomorrow.
Ryan, the more review the better. We aren't in any direct rush, other than
the natural desire to have cool things as early as possible.
Peter, responses below:
On May 22, 2017 9:33 AM, "Peter Todd" <pete at petertodd.org> wrote:
On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 02:17:07AM -0400, Paul Sztorc via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> This work includes the relatively new concept of "Blind Merged Mining"
> [2] which I developed in January to allow SHA256^2 miners to merge-mine
> these "drivechains", even if these miners aren't running the actual
> sidechain software. The goal is to prevent sidechains from affecting the
> levelness of the mining "playing field". BMM is conceptually similar to
> ZooKeeV [3] which Peter Todd sketched out in mid-2013. BMM is not
> required for drivechain, but it would address some of the last remaining
> concerns.
Thanks for the credit, although I think the security properties of what
you're
proposing are very different - and much weaker - than what I proposed in
Zookeyv.
As you state in [2] "if miners never validate sidechains at all, whoever
bids
the most for the chain (on a continuous basis), can spam a 3-month long
stream
of invalid headers, and then withdraw all of the coins deposited to the
sidechain." and "Since the mining is blind, and the sidechain-withdrawal
security-level is SPV, miners who remain blind forever have no way of
telling
who “should” really get the funds."
Finally, you suggest that in this event, miners *do* have to upgrade to a
full
node, an expensive and time-consuming operation (and one that may be
impossible
for some miners if necessary data isn't available).
Surprisingly, this requirement (or, more precisely, this incentive) does
not effect miners relative to each other. The incentive to upgrade is only
for the purpose of preventing a "theft" -- defined as: an improper
withdrawal from a sidechain. It is not about miner revenues or the ability
to mine generally (or conduct BMM specifically). The costs of such a theft
(decrease in market price, decrease in future transaction fee levels) would
be shared collectively by all future miners. Therefore, it would have no
effect on miners relative to each other.
Moreover, miners have other recourse if they are unable to run the node.
They can adopt a policy of simply rejecting ("downvoting") any withdrawals
that they don't understand. This would pause the withdraw process until
enough miners understand enough of what is going on to proceed with it.
Finally, the point in dispute is a single, infrequent, true/false question.
So miners may resort to semi-trusted methods to supplement their decision.
In other words, they can just ask people they trust, if the withdrawal is
correct or not. It is up to users to decide if they are comfortable with
these risks, if/when they decide to deposit to a sidechain.
It's unclear to me what the incentive is for miners to do any of this. Could
you explain in more detail what that incentive is?
It is a matter of comparing the costs and benefits. Ignoring theft, the
costs are near-zero, and the benefits are >0. Specifically, they are: a
higher BTC price and greater transaction fees. Theft is discouraged by
attempting to tie a theft to a loss of confidence in the miners, as
described in the spec/website.
In general the incentives are very similar to those of Bitcoin itself.
Paul
> [2] http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/blind-merged-mining/
> [3] https://s3.amazonaws.com/peter.todd/bitcoin-wizards-13-10-17.log
--
https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
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📝 Original message:Charlie, I'll be mostly in the tech track, of course. And I've already
planned to meet RSK guys after their event tomorrow.
Ryan, the more review the better. We aren't in any direct rush, other than
the natural desire to have cool things as early as possible.
Peter, responses below:
On May 22, 2017 9:33 AM, "Peter Todd" <pete at petertodd.org> wrote:
On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 02:17:07AM -0400, Paul Sztorc via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> This work includes the relatively new concept of "Blind Merged Mining"
> [2] which I developed in January to allow SHA256^2 miners to merge-mine
> these "drivechains", even if these miners aren't running the actual
> sidechain software. The goal is to prevent sidechains from affecting the
> levelness of the mining "playing field". BMM is conceptually similar to
> ZooKeeV [3] which Peter Todd sketched out in mid-2013. BMM is not
> required for drivechain, but it would address some of the last remaining
> concerns.
Thanks for the credit, although I think the security properties of what
you're
proposing are very different - and much weaker - than what I proposed in
Zookeyv.
As you state in [2] "if miners never validate sidechains at all, whoever
bids
the most for the chain (on a continuous basis), can spam a 3-month long
stream
of invalid headers, and then withdraw all of the coins deposited to the
sidechain." and "Since the mining is blind, and the sidechain-withdrawal
security-level is SPV, miners who remain blind forever have no way of
telling
who “should” really get the funds."
Finally, you suggest that in this event, miners *do* have to upgrade to a
full
node, an expensive and time-consuming operation (and one that may be
impossible
for some miners if necessary data isn't available).
Surprisingly, this requirement (or, more precisely, this incentive) does
not effect miners relative to each other. The incentive to upgrade is only
for the purpose of preventing a "theft" -- defined as: an improper
withdrawal from a sidechain. It is not about miner revenues or the ability
to mine generally (or conduct BMM specifically). The costs of such a theft
(decrease in market price, decrease in future transaction fee levels) would
be shared collectively by all future miners. Therefore, it would have no
effect on miners relative to each other.
Moreover, miners have other recourse if they are unable to run the node.
They can adopt a policy of simply rejecting ("downvoting") any withdrawals
that they don't understand. This would pause the withdraw process until
enough miners understand enough of what is going on to proceed with it.
Finally, the point in dispute is a single, infrequent, true/false question.
So miners may resort to semi-trusted methods to supplement their decision.
In other words, they can just ask people they trust, if the withdrawal is
correct or not. It is up to users to decide if they are comfortable with
these risks, if/when they decide to deposit to a sidechain.
It's unclear to me what the incentive is for miners to do any of this. Could
you explain in more detail what that incentive is?
It is a matter of comparing the costs and benefits. Ignoring theft, the
costs are near-zero, and the benefits are >0. Specifically, they are: a
higher BTC price and greater transaction fees. Theft is discouraged by
attempting to tie a theft to a loss of confidence in the miners, as
described in the spec/website.
In general the incentives are very similar to those of Bitcoin itself.
Paul
> [2] http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/blind-merged-mining/
> [3] https://s3.amazonaws.com/peter.todd/bitcoin-wizards-13-10-17.log
--
https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
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