Ruben Somsen [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2020-06-01 📝 Original message:Hi ZmnSCPxj, >If Alice is ...
📅 Original date posted:2020-06-01
📝 Original message:Hi ZmnSCPxj,
>If Alice is paying to a non-SAS aware payee
Yeah, I agree that this use case is not possible without a third
transaction (preferably from the timelocked side, in the case of SAS). My
point was merely that you can swap and simultaneously merge some of your
outputs into the post-swap non-timelocked output, though perhaps that is
not very useful.
Cheers,
Ruben
On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 4:34 AM ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj at protonmail.com> wrote:
> Good morning Ruben,
>
>
> >
> > That assumes there will be a second transaction. With SAS I believe we
> can avoid that, and make it look like this:
> >
> > +---+
> > Alice ---| |--- Bob
> > Alice ---| |
> > Bob ---| |
> > +---+
>
> If Alice is paying to a non-SAS aware payee that just provides an onchain
> address (i.e. all current payees today), then the 2-of-2 output it gets
> from the swap (both of whose keys it learns at the end of the swap) is
> **not** the payee onchain address.
> And it cannot just hand over both private keys, because the payee will
> still want unambiguous ownership of the entire UTXO.
> So it needs a second transaction anyway.
> (with Schnorr then Alice and payee Carol can act as a single entity/taker
> to Bob, a la Lightning Nodelets using Composable MuSig, but that is a
> pretty big increase in protocol complexity)
>
> If Alice does not want to store the remote-generated privkey as well, and
> use only an HD key, then it also has to make the second transaction.
> Alice might want to provide the same assurances as current wallets that
> memorizing a 12-word or so mnemonic is sufficient backup for all the funds
> (other than funds currently being swapped), and so would not want to leave
> any funds in a 2-of-2.
>
> If Bob is operating as a maker, then it also cannot directly use the
> 2-of-2 output it gets from the swap, and has to make a new 2-of-2 output,
> for the *next* taker that arrives to request its services.
>
> So there is always going to be a second transaction in a SwapMarket
> system, I think.
>
>
> What SAS / private key turnover gets us is that there is not a *third*
> transaction to move from a 1-of-1 to the next address that makers and
> takers will be moving anyway, and that the protocol does not have to add
> communication provisions for special things like adding maker inputs or
> specifying all destination addresses for the second stage and so on,
> because those can be done unilaterally once the private key is turned over.
>
>
> > >A thing I have been trying to work out is whether SAS can be done with
> more than one participant, like in S6
> >
> > S6 requires timelocks for each output in order to function, so I doubt
> it can be made to work with SAS.
>
> Hmmm right right.
>
> Naively it seems both chaining SAS/private key turnover to multiple
> makers, and a multi-maker S6 augmented with private key turnover, would
> result in the same number of transactions onchain, but I probably have to
> go draw some diagrams or something first.
>
> But S6 has the mild advantage that all the funding transactions paying to
> 2-of-2s *can* appear on the same block, whereas chaining swaps will have a
> particular order of when the transactions appear onchain, which might be
> used to derive the order of swaps.
> On the other hand, funds claiming in S6 is also ordered in time, so
> someone paying attention to the mempool could guess as well the order of
> swaps.
>
>
> Regards,
> ZmnSCPxj
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20200601/aee5c117/attachment.html>;
📝 Original message:Hi ZmnSCPxj,
>If Alice is paying to a non-SAS aware payee
Yeah, I agree that this use case is not possible without a third
transaction (preferably from the timelocked side, in the case of SAS). My
point was merely that you can swap and simultaneously merge some of your
outputs into the post-swap non-timelocked output, though perhaps that is
not very useful.
Cheers,
Ruben
On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 4:34 AM ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj at protonmail.com> wrote:
> Good morning Ruben,
>
>
> >
> > That assumes there will be a second transaction. With SAS I believe we
> can avoid that, and make it look like this:
> >
> > +---+
> > Alice ---| |--- Bob
> > Alice ---| |
> > Bob ---| |
> > +---+
>
> If Alice is paying to a non-SAS aware payee that just provides an onchain
> address (i.e. all current payees today), then the 2-of-2 output it gets
> from the swap (both of whose keys it learns at the end of the swap) is
> **not** the payee onchain address.
> And it cannot just hand over both private keys, because the payee will
> still want unambiguous ownership of the entire UTXO.
> So it needs a second transaction anyway.
> (with Schnorr then Alice and payee Carol can act as a single entity/taker
> to Bob, a la Lightning Nodelets using Composable MuSig, but that is a
> pretty big increase in protocol complexity)
>
> If Alice does not want to store the remote-generated privkey as well, and
> use only an HD key, then it also has to make the second transaction.
> Alice might want to provide the same assurances as current wallets that
> memorizing a 12-word or so mnemonic is sufficient backup for all the funds
> (other than funds currently being swapped), and so would not want to leave
> any funds in a 2-of-2.
>
> If Bob is operating as a maker, then it also cannot directly use the
> 2-of-2 output it gets from the swap, and has to make a new 2-of-2 output,
> for the *next* taker that arrives to request its services.
>
> So there is always going to be a second transaction in a SwapMarket
> system, I think.
>
>
> What SAS / private key turnover gets us is that there is not a *third*
> transaction to move from a 1-of-1 to the next address that makers and
> takers will be moving anyway, and that the protocol does not have to add
> communication provisions for special things like adding maker inputs or
> specifying all destination addresses for the second stage and so on,
> because those can be done unilaterally once the private key is turned over.
>
>
> > >A thing I have been trying to work out is whether SAS can be done with
> more than one participant, like in S6
> >
> > S6 requires timelocks for each output in order to function, so I doubt
> it can be made to work with SAS.
>
> Hmmm right right.
>
> Naively it seems both chaining SAS/private key turnover to multiple
> makers, and a multi-maker S6 augmented with private key turnover, would
> result in the same number of transactions onchain, but I probably have to
> go draw some diagrams or something first.
>
> But S6 has the mild advantage that all the funding transactions paying to
> 2-of-2s *can* appear on the same block, whereas chaining swaps will have a
> particular order of when the transactions appear onchain, which might be
> used to derive the order of swaps.
> On the other hand, funds claiming in S6 is also ordered in time, so
> someone paying attention to the mempool could guess as well the order of
> swaps.
>
>
> Regards,
> ZmnSCPxj
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20200601/aee5c117/attachment.html>;