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Church-Jewish Relations: Pope Pius X's Audience with Theodor Herzl
Opinions & News on Pius X
October 12, 2016
On January 26, 1904, Theodor Herzl had an audience with Pius X in the Vatican, to ask for his support for the Zionist effort to establish a Jewish state in Palestine. This is his version of the meeting, recorded in his diary. Source: Raphael Patai, The Complete Diaries of Theodor Herzl, translated by Harry Zohn (New York/London: Herzl Press, Thomas Yoseloff, 1960), 1601-1605. The "Lippay" referred to in the chronicle is Count Berthold Dominik Lippay, an Austrian papal portraitist, whom Herzl had met in Venice and who had arranged the audience with the pope.
*****
Yesterday I was with the Pope. The route was already familiar to me, as I had met Lippay several times. I passed the Swiss lackeys, who looked like clerics, and the clerics who looked like lackeys, the papal officials and chamberlains.
I arrived 10 minutes early and didn't even have to wait. I was led by the Pope through several small reception rooms.
He received me standing and held out his hand, which I did not kiss. Lippay had told me I should do so, but I did not. I believe I incurred his displeasure by this, since everyone who meets him kneels down and at least kisses his hand.
This hand kiss had caused me a lot of worry. I was very happy when I finally got over it.
He sat down in an armchair, a throne for minor occasions. Then he invited me to sit next to him and smiled at me as if in friendly expectation.
I began: " I thank Your Holiness for the favor of granting me this audience. " [In Italian in the original text].
“ It's a pleasure ,” he said with gentle disapproval.
I apologized for my miserable Italian, but he said, " No, you speak very well, Mr. Commendatore ." Since I had worn my Mejidiyye ribbon [ed. note: military and knightly honor of the Ottoman Empire] for the first time, on Lippay's advice, the Pope consequently always addressed me as Commendatore.
He is a good, rough village priest, for whom Christianity has remained a living thing even in the Vatican.
I briefly presented my request to him. He, however, perhaps annoyed by my refusal to kiss his hand, replied in a stern and resolute tone:
"We cannot favor this movement. We cannot prevent the Jews from going to Jerusalem, but we can never favor it. The land of Jerusalem, if it was not always holy, was sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ (he does not pronounce Jesus, but Yesu, in the Venetian way). As head of the church, I cannot tell you anything else. The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people ."
So the conflict between Rome, represented by him, and Jerusalem, represented by me, was opened once again.
At first, to be safe, I tried to be conciliatory. I recited my little piece about extra-territoriality, res sacrae extra commercium [holy places taken away from business]. But it didn't make much of an impression. Jerusalem, he said, must not fall into the hands of the Jews.
"And your current status, Holy Father?"
"I know, it is not pleasant to see the Turks in possession of our holy places. We simply have to come to terms with this. But to support the Jews in the acquisition of the Holy Places, that we cannot do . "
I said that our starting point had been only the suffering of the Jews and that we wanted to avoid religious problems.
"Yes, but we, and I as the head of the Church, cannot do this. There are two possibilities. Either the Jews cling to their faith and continue to wait for the Messiah who, for us, has already appeared. In this case they will only deny the divinity of Jesus and we cannot help them. Or they go there without any religion, and then we may be even less favorable to them.
"The Jewish religion is the foundation of ours; but it has been superseded by the teachings of Christ, and we cannot grant it any further validity. The Jews, who should have been the first to recognize Jesus Christ, have not done so up to now . "
On the tip of my tongue was: "This is what happens in every family. No one believes in their relatives ." But I said instead: "Terror and persecution may not have been the right means to open the eyes of the Jews . "
But he replied, and this time it was magnificent in its simplicity:
"Our Lord came without power. He was poor. He came in peace. He did not persecute anyone. He was persecuted.
He was abandoned even by his apostles. Only later did he grow in stature. It took the Church three centuries to evolve. The Jews then had time to recognize his divinity, without any pressure. But they have not done so until today . "
"But, Holy Father, the Jews are in terrible straits. I do not know whether Your Holiness is aware of the full extent of this sad situation. We need a land for these persecuted people."
"Does it have to be Jerusalem?"
"We are not asking for Jerusalem, but Palestine, only the secular land . "
"We cannot be in favor of this .
"Does Your Holiness know the situation of the Jews?"
"Yes, since my days in Mantua. Jews live there and I have always been on good terms with Jews. Only the other evening two Jews came to see me here. After all, there are other ties than those of religion: courtesy and philanthropy. We do not deny these to Jews. In fact, we also pray for them: that their minds may be enlightened. Today the Church celebrates the feast of an unbeliever who, on the road to Damascus, miraculously converted to the true faith. And so, if you go to Palestine and settle your people there, we should have churches and priests ready to baptize all of you."
Count Lippay had announced himself. The Pope allowed him to enter. The Count knelt, kissed his hand, then joined the conversation by telling of our "miraculous" meeting at Bauer's Beer Hall in Venice. The miracle was that he had originally planned to spend the night in Padua. Since that happened, I had expressed the desire to be able to kiss the Holy Father's foot.
At this point the Pope darkened in the face, because I had not even kissed his hand. Lippay continued to say that I had expressed appreciation for the noble qualities of Jesus Christ. The Pope listened, sometimes took a pinch of snuff, and sneezed into a large red cotton handkerchief. In fact, these peasant touches are what I like most about him and what motivates my respect.
In this way Lippay wanted to explain why he had introduced me, perhaps to apologize. But the Pope said: "On the contrary, I am happy that you brought me the Commendatore" .
As for the actual business, he repeated what he had told me: Non possumus [We cannot]!
Up until the moment of farewell, Lippay spent some time kneeling in front of him and didn't seem to have enough of kissing his hand. So I realized that the Pope liked this kind of thing. But even in farewell, all I did was give him a warm handshake and a bow.
Duration of the hearing: approximately 25 minutes.
In the Raphael Rooms, where I spent the next hour, I saw a picture of an emperor kneeling to allow the seated Pope to place the crown on his head.
This is the way Rome wants it.
Opinions & News on Pius X
October 12, 2016
On January 26, 1904, Theodor Herzl had an audience with Pius X in the Vatican, to ask for his support for the Zionist effort to establish a Jewish state in Palestine. This is his version of the meeting, recorded in his diary. Source: Raphael Patai, The Complete Diaries of Theodor Herzl, translated by Harry Zohn (New York/London: Herzl Press, Thomas Yoseloff, 1960), 1601-1605. The "Lippay" referred to in the chronicle is Count Berthold Dominik Lippay, an Austrian papal portraitist, whom Herzl had met in Venice and who had arranged the audience with the pope.
*****
Yesterday I was with the Pope. The route was already familiar to me, as I had met Lippay several times. I passed the Swiss lackeys, who looked like clerics, and the clerics who looked like lackeys, the papal officials and chamberlains.
I arrived 10 minutes early and didn't even have to wait. I was led by the Pope through several small reception rooms.
He received me standing and held out his hand, which I did not kiss. Lippay had told me I should do so, but I did not. I believe I incurred his displeasure by this, since everyone who meets him kneels down and at least kisses his hand.
This hand kiss had caused me a lot of worry. I was very happy when I finally got over it.
He sat down in an armchair, a throne for minor occasions. Then he invited me to sit next to him and smiled at me as if in friendly expectation.
I began: " I thank Your Holiness for the favor of granting me this audience. " [In Italian in the original text].
“ It's a pleasure ,” he said with gentle disapproval.
I apologized for my miserable Italian, but he said, " No, you speak very well, Mr. Commendatore ." Since I had worn my Mejidiyye ribbon [ed. note: military and knightly honor of the Ottoman Empire] for the first time, on Lippay's advice, the Pope consequently always addressed me as Commendatore.
He is a good, rough village priest, for whom Christianity has remained a living thing even in the Vatican.
I briefly presented my request to him. He, however, perhaps annoyed by my refusal to kiss his hand, replied in a stern and resolute tone:
"We cannot favor this movement. We cannot prevent the Jews from going to Jerusalem, but we can never favor it. The land of Jerusalem, if it was not always holy, was sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ (he does not pronounce Jesus, but Yesu, in the Venetian way). As head of the church, I cannot tell you anything else. The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people ."
So the conflict between Rome, represented by him, and Jerusalem, represented by me, was opened once again.
At first, to be safe, I tried to be conciliatory. I recited my little piece about extra-territoriality, res sacrae extra commercium [holy places taken away from business]. But it didn't make much of an impression. Jerusalem, he said, must not fall into the hands of the Jews.
"And your current status, Holy Father?"
"I know, it is not pleasant to see the Turks in possession of our holy places. We simply have to come to terms with this. But to support the Jews in the acquisition of the Holy Places, that we cannot do . "
I said that our starting point had been only the suffering of the Jews and that we wanted to avoid religious problems.
"Yes, but we, and I as the head of the Church, cannot do this. There are two possibilities. Either the Jews cling to their faith and continue to wait for the Messiah who, for us, has already appeared. In this case they will only deny the divinity of Jesus and we cannot help them. Or they go there without any religion, and then we may be even less favorable to them.
"The Jewish religion is the foundation of ours; but it has been superseded by the teachings of Christ, and we cannot grant it any further validity. The Jews, who should have been the first to recognize Jesus Christ, have not done so up to now . "
On the tip of my tongue was: "This is what happens in every family. No one believes in their relatives ." But I said instead: "Terror and persecution may not have been the right means to open the eyes of the Jews . "
But he replied, and this time it was magnificent in its simplicity:
"Our Lord came without power. He was poor. He came in peace. He did not persecute anyone. He was persecuted.
He was abandoned even by his apostles. Only later did he grow in stature. It took the Church three centuries to evolve. The Jews then had time to recognize his divinity, without any pressure. But they have not done so until today . "
"But, Holy Father, the Jews are in terrible straits. I do not know whether Your Holiness is aware of the full extent of this sad situation. We need a land for these persecuted people."
"Does it have to be Jerusalem?"
"We are not asking for Jerusalem, but Palestine, only the secular land . "
"We cannot be in favor of this .
"Does Your Holiness know the situation of the Jews?"
"Yes, since my days in Mantua. Jews live there and I have always been on good terms with Jews. Only the other evening two Jews came to see me here. After all, there are other ties than those of religion: courtesy and philanthropy. We do not deny these to Jews. In fact, we also pray for them: that their minds may be enlightened. Today the Church celebrates the feast of an unbeliever who, on the road to Damascus, miraculously converted to the true faith. And so, if you go to Palestine and settle your people there, we should have churches and priests ready to baptize all of you."
Count Lippay had announced himself. The Pope allowed him to enter. The Count knelt, kissed his hand, then joined the conversation by telling of our "miraculous" meeting at Bauer's Beer Hall in Venice. The miracle was that he had originally planned to spend the night in Padua. Since that happened, I had expressed the desire to be able to kiss the Holy Father's foot.
At this point the Pope darkened in the face, because I had not even kissed his hand. Lippay continued to say that I had expressed appreciation for the noble qualities of Jesus Christ. The Pope listened, sometimes took a pinch of snuff, and sneezed into a large red cotton handkerchief. In fact, these peasant touches are what I like most about him and what motivates my respect.
In this way Lippay wanted to explain why he had introduced me, perhaps to apologize. But the Pope said: "On the contrary, I am happy that you brought me the Commendatore" .
As for the actual business, he repeated what he had told me: Non possumus [We cannot]!
Up until the moment of farewell, Lippay spent some time kneeling in front of him and didn't seem to have enough of kissing his hand. So I realized that the Pope liked this kind of thing. But even in farewell, all I did was give him a warm handshake and a bow.
Duration of the hearing: approximately 25 minutes.
In the Raphael Rooms, where I spent the next hour, I saw a picture of an emperor kneeling to allow the seated Pope to place the crown on his head.
This is the way Rome wants it.
quoting nevent1q…fw2mLo conferma il grande Papa Pio X:
https://parrocchiariesepiox.it/san-pio-x/opinioni-e-news-pio-x/138-rapporto-chiesa-ebrei-l-udienza-di-papa-pio-x-a-theodor-herzl
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