Jorge Timón [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2023-05-11 🗒️ Summary of this message: The author ...
📅 Original date posted:2023-05-11
🗒️ Summary of this message: The author challenges Jeremy Rubin to a public debate to defend themselves against accusations and censorship, but doubts it will happen.
📝 Original message:
I challenge jeremy to a public debate somewhere. I forgot to say the name
on that sentence. Just to clarify.
If he believes he is on the right and I am on the wrong and "clearly
delusional" (or whatever he accuses me of), then he shouldn't be scared of
the debate, no?
Oh, let me guess..."I don't want to give him a platform, he is worse than
kanye west"?
Yeah, I bet the excuses are going to be along those lines.
Good bye, guys, I guess this will get me kicked out from another forum.
I lost count, but it feels like more than 109 forums, just saying.
For no reason at all, of course.
On Thu, May 11, 2023, 09:55 Jorge Timón <jtimon at jtimon.cc> wrote:
> Pressumption of innocence?
> Right to defend yourself?
>
> Wow, that sounds amazing, but, for example, wouldn't me defendibg myself
> from jeremy rubin be offtopic like...pretty much everywhere?
> Not sure you're familiar with that story, certainly you didn't hear my
> side of the story, did you?
> Where would it be fine for me to defend myself?
> I don't want to keep cosing bitcoin anymore, novody would review my PRs
> anyway once jeremy made sure everyone thought I am evil. Or perhaps I'm
> paranoid. Anyway, I would juat like to find the right venue to clean my
> name or at least be allowed to try. If that venue exists at all, that is.
>
> Personally, I feel extremely censored.
> I also feel I've been judged unfairly and margibalized by many.
> If it was because of my mistakes and not because jeremy and others lied
> about me behind my back, well, I would like to know at least.
>
> Am I really asking that much?
> I'm surprised at how very few people are in favor of the american first
> amendment, btw.
>
> I know, I know. Offtopic. Everywhere. Every time.
> If something it's offtopic everywhere, that's a censored taboo, I think.
>
> Therefore I challenge to a public debate somewhere. For me to defend
> myself and for him to defend himself too (if that's possible).
> I know it's never going to happen, but I want to make sure it is known
> that it is because of him, I'm more than ready to defend myself against
> him. Is he?
>
> He can call me a nazi and even though I'm not one (I'm not even racist),
> it is not so easy to sue for defamation in international jurisdictions.
> Imagine if I called him a pederast (kethuboth 11b, sanhesrin 69b) or a
> cannibal (samhedrin 64a) without giving him a chance to defend himself.
> Wouldn't that be nasty?
> I want him to be able to defend himself too, or at least try it.
>
> Now, moderators, censor this email for being offtopic and prove my point.
> Jeremy will still get the email and I bet he won't want a public debate.
> But I'm biased because I think he is guilty. Just like jeffrey epstein.
> Is jeremy rubin a mossad agent?
> Is there any reason to think so?
> Or are these just rummors?
> He should have a chance to try to clean his name, in my opinion. Again,
> just like jeffrey epstein.
>
> On Wed, May 10, 2023, 17:57 Antoine Riard <antoine.riard at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Tony,
>>
>> > Is there a better place to have public communication? Unfortunately
>> since one off topic email was sent here, it's been a ghost town. It appears
>> that there's many emails being held and only one moderator that checks them
>> once a week.
>>
>> As I think you're referring to my post of March 21th and as the author of
>> this post, I'll politely refuse the qualification of "off-topic". I had and
>> I still have the concerns of "frivolous legal claims" being used between
>> bitcoin developers/organizations provoking a distortion of the neutrality
>> of the development and a chilling effect of the technical discussions (i.e
>> code we compile and spec we implement). For those reasons, it was my legal
>> right and moral duty to inform the community of what is happening between
>> Chaincode and myself. And here I'm following the recommendation of one of
>> the moderators of the Lightning mailing list himself "If this worries you
>> too, let's make sure we keep each other honest, OK?" [0].
>>
>> When you think a group of people with open-source responsibilities are in
>> a situation of conflict of interests or "moral hazards", or even the
>> appearance of them, you have the right to expose the wrongdoing, including
>> the _proportional_ revelation of private elements. People have done the
>> "free choice" to conduct a career in open-source, for some even declaring
>> in some context to maintain integrity and accept their actions to be
>> submitted to external accountability [1]. While the exposure of private
>> elements of public personalities might break common courtesy, it's a
>> morally valid practice if you're familiar with the public institutions of
>> US and Europe, and I think this practice has found validity in the history
>> of open-source commons or IETF's protocol development [1].
>>
>> Beyond, the Bitcoin and Lightning development communication channels
>> constitute a public forum, where by nature the participants are exchanging
>> ideas and defending competing interests. In consequence, the participants'
>> rights and capabilities to contribute and speak their minds in those
>> communication channels should be protected. Those communication channels
>> are not your usual corporate workplace, and in case of conflicting
>> principles, the maintainers of those communication channels should ensure a
>> balance of rights and a proportionality in any restraining measure.
>>
>> And this new post is not to exonerate myself of any legal responsibility
>> for personal matters that could be recognized as the outcome of a judicial
>> process, respective of both rights of the accusation and rights of the
>> defense. Rather to enlighten the Bitcoin community that the formal
>> separation between private matters and open-source responsibilities, and
>> the adequate check-and-balances to guarantee this separation is somehow
>> what are the underlying stakes for this feud between Chaincode and myself,
>> from my perspective. I can say missing an open-source engineering meeting
>> or being revoked a few Github permissions matters far less than the clear
>> affirmation and respect of the freedom of expression, the presumption of
>> innocence and due process in the Bitcoin common space, all proportions
>> conserved.
>>
>> I don't blame any party involved in this issue, nor assign "bad
>> intentions''. One position is really a function of your life experiences,
>> knowledge of the legal and cultural framework and access to the factual
>> elements. As all human conflicts it is not binary rather "grey". People can
>> be top executives at a billion-dollar company, having successful ventures
>> with hundreds of folks under management, or have a lot of responsibilities
>> for their relative young age, and still disagree on the set of legal and
>> moral principles to apply in the present case.
>>
>> Finally, thanks to the Bitcoin friends who have reached out to call for
>> level-headedness and cool-mindness in the public discussion of this complex
>> topic. Like I said to them, in the lack of more suspected wrongdoing from
>> the other side, I won't communicate further on this subject on the Bitcoin
>> and Lightning technical channels. However I still firmly believe the
>> discussion on the principles, abstract in the maximum from its private
>> elements, should still be pursued on other channels. Independently, there
>> is a legal channel opened between Chaincode and myself and good progress is
>> made to find a serene and long-standing resolution to this issue.
>>
>> Best,
>> Antoine
>>
>> [0]
>> https://rusty-lightning.medium.com/the-corrosion-of-ethics-in-cryptocurrencies-f7ba77e9dfc3
>> [1]
>> https://github.com/btrustteam/board-book/blob/main/vision/genesis_principles.md
>> [2]
>> https://www.ietf.org/about/administration/policies-procedures/conflict-interest/
>>
>> Le lun. 8 mai 2023 à 21:26, Tony Giorgio via Lightning-dev <
>> lightning-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> a écrit :
>>
>>> Is there a better place to have public communication? Unfortunately
>>> since one off topic email was sent here, it's been a ghost town. It appears
>>> that there's many emails being held and only one moderator that checks them
>>> once a week.
>>>
>>> Would hate to see this list die but wondering if there's a better place
>>> for discussions?
>>>
>>> Tony
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Apr 29, 2023, 9:57 PM, niftynei < niftynei at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> When I joined the lightning community a few years ago, I was relatively
>>> new to open source software and specification work. Rusty really impressed
>>> on me on the importance of holding conversations, as much as possible in
>>> public.
>>>
>>> Practically speaking, this encompasses IRC, this mailing list, and
>>> github issues/PRs.
>>>
>>> The reason for this is twofold. It helps document the range of options
>>> considered for technical decisions and it provides an interface point for
>>> new participants to contribute to the discussion.
>>>
>>> Given some recent mails that were posted to this list, now seems like a
>>> good time to reiterate the importance and preference of public
>>> communication whenever possible, especially for specification or technical
>>> discussions.
>>>
>>>
>>> ~ nifty
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Lightning-dev mailing list
>>> Lightning-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lightning-dev
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> Lightning-dev mailing list
>> Lightning-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lightning-dev
>>
>
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🗒️ Summary of this message: The author challenges Jeremy Rubin to a public debate to defend themselves against accusations and censorship, but doubts it will happen.
📝 Original message:
I challenge jeremy to a public debate somewhere. I forgot to say the name
on that sentence. Just to clarify.
If he believes he is on the right and I am on the wrong and "clearly
delusional" (or whatever he accuses me of), then he shouldn't be scared of
the debate, no?
Oh, let me guess..."I don't want to give him a platform, he is worse than
kanye west"?
Yeah, I bet the excuses are going to be along those lines.
Good bye, guys, I guess this will get me kicked out from another forum.
I lost count, but it feels like more than 109 forums, just saying.
For no reason at all, of course.
On Thu, May 11, 2023, 09:55 Jorge Timón <jtimon at jtimon.cc> wrote:
> Pressumption of innocence?
> Right to defend yourself?
>
> Wow, that sounds amazing, but, for example, wouldn't me defendibg myself
> from jeremy rubin be offtopic like...pretty much everywhere?
> Not sure you're familiar with that story, certainly you didn't hear my
> side of the story, did you?
> Where would it be fine for me to defend myself?
> I don't want to keep cosing bitcoin anymore, novody would review my PRs
> anyway once jeremy made sure everyone thought I am evil. Or perhaps I'm
> paranoid. Anyway, I would juat like to find the right venue to clean my
> name or at least be allowed to try. If that venue exists at all, that is.
>
> Personally, I feel extremely censored.
> I also feel I've been judged unfairly and margibalized by many.
> If it was because of my mistakes and not because jeremy and others lied
> about me behind my back, well, I would like to know at least.
>
> Am I really asking that much?
> I'm surprised at how very few people are in favor of the american first
> amendment, btw.
>
> I know, I know. Offtopic. Everywhere. Every time.
> If something it's offtopic everywhere, that's a censored taboo, I think.
>
> Therefore I challenge to a public debate somewhere. For me to defend
> myself and for him to defend himself too (if that's possible).
> I know it's never going to happen, but I want to make sure it is known
> that it is because of him, I'm more than ready to defend myself against
> him. Is he?
>
> He can call me a nazi and even though I'm not one (I'm not even racist),
> it is not so easy to sue for defamation in international jurisdictions.
> Imagine if I called him a pederast (kethuboth 11b, sanhesrin 69b) or a
> cannibal (samhedrin 64a) without giving him a chance to defend himself.
> Wouldn't that be nasty?
> I want him to be able to defend himself too, or at least try it.
>
> Now, moderators, censor this email for being offtopic and prove my point.
> Jeremy will still get the email and I bet he won't want a public debate.
> But I'm biased because I think he is guilty. Just like jeffrey epstein.
> Is jeremy rubin a mossad agent?
> Is there any reason to think so?
> Or are these just rummors?
> He should have a chance to try to clean his name, in my opinion. Again,
> just like jeffrey epstein.
>
> On Wed, May 10, 2023, 17:57 Antoine Riard <antoine.riard at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Tony,
>>
>> > Is there a better place to have public communication? Unfortunately
>> since one off topic email was sent here, it's been a ghost town. It appears
>> that there's many emails being held and only one moderator that checks them
>> once a week.
>>
>> As I think you're referring to my post of March 21th and as the author of
>> this post, I'll politely refuse the qualification of "off-topic". I had and
>> I still have the concerns of "frivolous legal claims" being used between
>> bitcoin developers/organizations provoking a distortion of the neutrality
>> of the development and a chilling effect of the technical discussions (i.e
>> code we compile and spec we implement). For those reasons, it was my legal
>> right and moral duty to inform the community of what is happening between
>> Chaincode and myself. And here I'm following the recommendation of one of
>> the moderators of the Lightning mailing list himself "If this worries you
>> too, let's make sure we keep each other honest, OK?" [0].
>>
>> When you think a group of people with open-source responsibilities are in
>> a situation of conflict of interests or "moral hazards", or even the
>> appearance of them, you have the right to expose the wrongdoing, including
>> the _proportional_ revelation of private elements. People have done the
>> "free choice" to conduct a career in open-source, for some even declaring
>> in some context to maintain integrity and accept their actions to be
>> submitted to external accountability [1]. While the exposure of private
>> elements of public personalities might break common courtesy, it's a
>> morally valid practice if you're familiar with the public institutions of
>> US and Europe, and I think this practice has found validity in the history
>> of open-source commons or IETF's protocol development [1].
>>
>> Beyond, the Bitcoin and Lightning development communication channels
>> constitute a public forum, where by nature the participants are exchanging
>> ideas and defending competing interests. In consequence, the participants'
>> rights and capabilities to contribute and speak their minds in those
>> communication channels should be protected. Those communication channels
>> are not your usual corporate workplace, and in case of conflicting
>> principles, the maintainers of those communication channels should ensure a
>> balance of rights and a proportionality in any restraining measure.
>>
>> And this new post is not to exonerate myself of any legal responsibility
>> for personal matters that could be recognized as the outcome of a judicial
>> process, respective of both rights of the accusation and rights of the
>> defense. Rather to enlighten the Bitcoin community that the formal
>> separation between private matters and open-source responsibilities, and
>> the adequate check-and-balances to guarantee this separation is somehow
>> what are the underlying stakes for this feud between Chaincode and myself,
>> from my perspective. I can say missing an open-source engineering meeting
>> or being revoked a few Github permissions matters far less than the clear
>> affirmation and respect of the freedom of expression, the presumption of
>> innocence and due process in the Bitcoin common space, all proportions
>> conserved.
>>
>> I don't blame any party involved in this issue, nor assign "bad
>> intentions''. One position is really a function of your life experiences,
>> knowledge of the legal and cultural framework and access to the factual
>> elements. As all human conflicts it is not binary rather "grey". People can
>> be top executives at a billion-dollar company, having successful ventures
>> with hundreds of folks under management, or have a lot of responsibilities
>> for their relative young age, and still disagree on the set of legal and
>> moral principles to apply in the present case.
>>
>> Finally, thanks to the Bitcoin friends who have reached out to call for
>> level-headedness and cool-mindness in the public discussion of this complex
>> topic. Like I said to them, in the lack of more suspected wrongdoing from
>> the other side, I won't communicate further on this subject on the Bitcoin
>> and Lightning technical channels. However I still firmly believe the
>> discussion on the principles, abstract in the maximum from its private
>> elements, should still be pursued on other channels. Independently, there
>> is a legal channel opened between Chaincode and myself and good progress is
>> made to find a serene and long-standing resolution to this issue.
>>
>> Best,
>> Antoine
>>
>> [0]
>> https://rusty-lightning.medium.com/the-corrosion-of-ethics-in-cryptocurrencies-f7ba77e9dfc3
>> [1]
>> https://github.com/btrustteam/board-book/blob/main/vision/genesis_principles.md
>> [2]
>> https://www.ietf.org/about/administration/policies-procedures/conflict-interest/
>>
>> Le lun. 8 mai 2023 à 21:26, Tony Giorgio via Lightning-dev <
>> lightning-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> a écrit :
>>
>>> Is there a better place to have public communication? Unfortunately
>>> since one off topic email was sent here, it's been a ghost town. It appears
>>> that there's many emails being held and only one moderator that checks them
>>> once a week.
>>>
>>> Would hate to see this list die but wondering if there's a better place
>>> for discussions?
>>>
>>> Tony
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Apr 29, 2023, 9:57 PM, niftynei < niftynei at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> When I joined the lightning community a few years ago, I was relatively
>>> new to open source software and specification work. Rusty really impressed
>>> on me on the importance of holding conversations, as much as possible in
>>> public.
>>>
>>> Practically speaking, this encompasses IRC, this mailing list, and
>>> github issues/PRs.
>>>
>>> The reason for this is twofold. It helps document the range of options
>>> considered for technical decisions and it provides an interface point for
>>> new participants to contribute to the discussion.
>>>
>>> Given some recent mails that were posted to this list, now seems like a
>>> good time to reiterate the importance and preference of public
>>> communication whenever possible, especially for specification or technical
>>> discussions.
>>>
>>>
>>> ~ nifty
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Lightning-dev mailing list
>>> Lightning-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lightning-dev
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> Lightning-dev mailing list
>> Lightning-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lightning-dev
>>
>
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