Billy Tetrud [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2022-03-12 📝 Original message:> If I find out I'm in the ...
📅 Original date posted:2022-03-12
📝 Original message:> If I find out I'm in the economic minority then I have little choice but
to either accept the existence of the new rules or sell my Bitcoin
I do worry about what I have called a "dumb majority soft fork". This is
where, say, mainstream adoption has happened, some crisis of some magnitude
happens that convinces a lot of people something needs to change now. Let's
say it's another congestion period where fees spike for months. Getting
into and out of lighting is hard and maybe even the security of lightning's
security model is called into question because it would either take too
long to get a transaction on chain or be too expensive. Panicy people might
once again think something like "let's increase the block size to 1GB, then
we'll never have this problem again". This could happen in a segwit-like
soft fork.
In a future where Bitcoin is the dominant world currency, it might not be
unrealistic to imagine that an economic majority might not understand why
such a thing would be so dangerous, or think the risk is low enough to be
worth it. At that point, we in the economic minority would need a plan to
hard fork away. One wouldn't necessarily need to sell all their majority
fork Bitcoin, but they could.
That minority fork would of course need some mining power. How much? I
don't know, but we should think about how small of a minority chain we
could imagine might be worth saving. Is 5% enough? 1%? How long would the
chain stall if hash power dropped to 1%?
TBH I give the world a ~50% chance that something like this happens in the
next 100 years. Maybe Bitcoin will ossify and we'll lose all the people
that had deep knowledge on these kinds of things because almost no one's
actively working on it. Maybe the crisis will be too much for people to
remain rational and think long term. Who knows? But I think that at some
point it will become dangerous if there isn't a well discussed well vetted
plan for what to do in such a scenario. Maybe we can think about that 10
years from now, but we probably shouldn't wait much longer than that. And
maybe it's as simple as: tweak the difficulty recalculation and then just
release a soft fork aware Bitcoin version that rejects the new rules or
rejects a specific existing post-soft-fork block. Would it be that simple?
On Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 07:35 Russell O'Connor via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 9:03 AM Jorge Timón <jtimon at jtimon.cc> wrote:
>
>>
>> A major contender to the Speedy Trial design at the time was to mandate
>>> eventual forced signalling, championed by luke-jr. It turns out that, at
>>> the time of that proposal, a large amount of hash power simply did not have
>>> the firmware required to support signalling. That activation proposal
>>> never got broad consensus, and rightly so, because in retrospect we see
>>> that the design might have risked knocking a significant fraction of mining
>>> power offline if it had been deployed. Imagine if the firmware couldn't be
>>> quickly updated or imagine if the problem had been hardware related.
>>>
>>
>>>> Yes, I like this solution too, with a little caveat: an easy mechanism
>>>> for users to actively oppose a proposal.
>>>> Luke alao talked about this.
>>>> If users oppose, they should use activation as a trigger to fork out of
>>>> the network by invalidating the block that produces activation.
>>>> The bad scenario here is that miners want to deploy something but users
>>>> don't want to.
>>>> "But that may lead to a fork". Yeah, I know.
>>>> I hope imagining a scenario in which developers propose something that
>>>> most miners accept but some users reject is not taboo.
>>>>
>>>
>>> This topic is not taboo.
>>>
>>> There are a couple of ways of opting out of taproot. Firstly, users can
>>> just not use taproot. Secondly, users can choose to not enforce taproot
>>> either by running an older version of Bitcoin Core or otherwise forking the
>>> source code. Thirdly, if some users insist on a chain where taproot is
>>> "not activated", they can always softk-fork in their own rule that
>>> disallows the version bits that complete the Speedy Trial activation
>>> sequence, or alternatively soft-fork in a rule to make spending from (or
>>> to) taproot addresses illegal.
>>>
>>
>> Since it's about activation in general and not about taproot
>> specifically, your third point is the one that applies.
>> Users could have coordinated to have "activation x" never activated in
>> their chains if they simply make a rule that activating a given proposal
>> (with bip8) is forbidden in their chain.
>> But coordination requires time.
>>
>
> A mechanism of soft-forking against activation exists. What more do you
> want? Are we supposed to write the code on behalf of this hypothetical
> group of users who may or may not exist for them just so that they can have
> a node that remains stalled on Speedy Trial lockin? That simply isn't
> reasonable, but if you think it is, I invite you to create such a fork.
>
>
>> Please, try to imagine an example for an activation that you wouldn't
>> like yourself. Imagine it gets proposed and you, as a user, want to resist
>> it.
>>
>
> If I believe I'm in the economic majority then I'll just refuse to upgrade
> my node, which was option 2. I don't know why you dismissed it.
>
> Not much can prevent a miner cartel from enforcing rules that users don't
> want other than hard forking a replacement POW. There is no effective
> difference between some developers releasing a malicious soft-fork of
> Bitcoin and the miners releasing a malicious version themselves. And when
> the miner cartel forms, they aren't necessarily going to be polite enough
> to give a transparent signal of their new rules. However, without the
> economic majority enforcing their set of rules, the cartel continuously
> risks falling apart from the temptation of transaction fees of the censored
> transactions.
>
> On the other hand, If I find out I'm in the economic minority then I have
> little choice but to either accept the existence of the new rules or sell
> my Bitcoin. Look, you cannot have the perfect system of money all by your
> lonesome self. Money doesn't have economic value if no one else wants to
> trade you for it. Just ask that poor user who YOLO'd his own taproot
> activation in advance all by themselves. I'm sure they think they've got
> just the perfect money system, with taproot early and everything. But now
> their node is stuck at block 692261
> <https://b10c.me/blog/007-spending-p2tr-pre-activation/>; and hasn't made
> progress since. No doubt they are hunkered down for the long term,
> absolutely committed to their fork and just waiting for the rest of the
> world to come around to how much better their version of Bitcoin is than
> the rest of us.
>
> Even though you've dismissed it, one of the considerations of taproot was
> that it is opt-in for users to use the functionality. Future soft-forks
> ought to have the same considerations to the extent possible.
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
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📝 Original message:> If I find out I'm in the economic minority then I have little choice but
to either accept the existence of the new rules or sell my Bitcoin
I do worry about what I have called a "dumb majority soft fork". This is
where, say, mainstream adoption has happened, some crisis of some magnitude
happens that convinces a lot of people something needs to change now. Let's
say it's another congestion period where fees spike for months. Getting
into and out of lighting is hard and maybe even the security of lightning's
security model is called into question because it would either take too
long to get a transaction on chain or be too expensive. Panicy people might
once again think something like "let's increase the block size to 1GB, then
we'll never have this problem again". This could happen in a segwit-like
soft fork.
In a future where Bitcoin is the dominant world currency, it might not be
unrealistic to imagine that an economic majority might not understand why
such a thing would be so dangerous, or think the risk is low enough to be
worth it. At that point, we in the economic minority would need a plan to
hard fork away. One wouldn't necessarily need to sell all their majority
fork Bitcoin, but they could.
That minority fork would of course need some mining power. How much? I
don't know, but we should think about how small of a minority chain we
could imagine might be worth saving. Is 5% enough? 1%? How long would the
chain stall if hash power dropped to 1%?
TBH I give the world a ~50% chance that something like this happens in the
next 100 years. Maybe Bitcoin will ossify and we'll lose all the people
that had deep knowledge on these kinds of things because almost no one's
actively working on it. Maybe the crisis will be too much for people to
remain rational and think long term. Who knows? But I think that at some
point it will become dangerous if there isn't a well discussed well vetted
plan for what to do in such a scenario. Maybe we can think about that 10
years from now, but we probably shouldn't wait much longer than that. And
maybe it's as simple as: tweak the difficulty recalculation and then just
release a soft fork aware Bitcoin version that rejects the new rules or
rejects a specific existing post-soft-fork block. Would it be that simple?
On Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 07:35 Russell O'Connor via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 9:03 AM Jorge Timón <jtimon at jtimon.cc> wrote:
>
>>
>> A major contender to the Speedy Trial design at the time was to mandate
>>> eventual forced signalling, championed by luke-jr. It turns out that, at
>>> the time of that proposal, a large amount of hash power simply did not have
>>> the firmware required to support signalling. That activation proposal
>>> never got broad consensus, and rightly so, because in retrospect we see
>>> that the design might have risked knocking a significant fraction of mining
>>> power offline if it had been deployed. Imagine if the firmware couldn't be
>>> quickly updated or imagine if the problem had been hardware related.
>>>
>>
>>>> Yes, I like this solution too, with a little caveat: an easy mechanism
>>>> for users to actively oppose a proposal.
>>>> Luke alao talked about this.
>>>> If users oppose, they should use activation as a trigger to fork out of
>>>> the network by invalidating the block that produces activation.
>>>> The bad scenario here is that miners want to deploy something but users
>>>> don't want to.
>>>> "But that may lead to a fork". Yeah, I know.
>>>> I hope imagining a scenario in which developers propose something that
>>>> most miners accept but some users reject is not taboo.
>>>>
>>>
>>> This topic is not taboo.
>>>
>>> There are a couple of ways of opting out of taproot. Firstly, users can
>>> just not use taproot. Secondly, users can choose to not enforce taproot
>>> either by running an older version of Bitcoin Core or otherwise forking the
>>> source code. Thirdly, if some users insist on a chain where taproot is
>>> "not activated", they can always softk-fork in their own rule that
>>> disallows the version bits that complete the Speedy Trial activation
>>> sequence, or alternatively soft-fork in a rule to make spending from (or
>>> to) taproot addresses illegal.
>>>
>>
>> Since it's about activation in general and not about taproot
>> specifically, your third point is the one that applies.
>> Users could have coordinated to have "activation x" never activated in
>> their chains if they simply make a rule that activating a given proposal
>> (with bip8) is forbidden in their chain.
>> But coordination requires time.
>>
>
> A mechanism of soft-forking against activation exists. What more do you
> want? Are we supposed to write the code on behalf of this hypothetical
> group of users who may or may not exist for them just so that they can have
> a node that remains stalled on Speedy Trial lockin? That simply isn't
> reasonable, but if you think it is, I invite you to create such a fork.
>
>
>> Please, try to imagine an example for an activation that you wouldn't
>> like yourself. Imagine it gets proposed and you, as a user, want to resist
>> it.
>>
>
> If I believe I'm in the economic majority then I'll just refuse to upgrade
> my node, which was option 2. I don't know why you dismissed it.
>
> Not much can prevent a miner cartel from enforcing rules that users don't
> want other than hard forking a replacement POW. There is no effective
> difference between some developers releasing a malicious soft-fork of
> Bitcoin and the miners releasing a malicious version themselves. And when
> the miner cartel forms, they aren't necessarily going to be polite enough
> to give a transparent signal of their new rules. However, without the
> economic majority enforcing their set of rules, the cartel continuously
> risks falling apart from the temptation of transaction fees of the censored
> transactions.
>
> On the other hand, If I find out I'm in the economic minority then I have
> little choice but to either accept the existence of the new rules or sell
> my Bitcoin. Look, you cannot have the perfect system of money all by your
> lonesome self. Money doesn't have economic value if no one else wants to
> trade you for it. Just ask that poor user who YOLO'd his own taproot
> activation in advance all by themselves. I'm sure they think they've got
> just the perfect money system, with taproot early and everything. But now
> their node is stuck at block 692261
> <https://b10c.me/blog/007-spending-p2tr-pre-activation/>; and hasn't made
> progress since. No doubt they are hunkered down for the long term,
> absolutely committed to their fork and just waiting for the rest of the
> world to come around to how much better their version of Bitcoin is than
> the rest of us.
>
> Even though you've dismissed it, one of the considerations of taproot was
> that it is opt-in for users to use the functionality. Future soft-forks
> ought to have the same considerations to the extent possible.
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
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