Ruben Somsen [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: 📅 Original date posted:2021-12-08 📝 Original message: Hi Jeremy, Thanks for ...
📅 Original date posted:2021-12-08
📝 Original message:
Hi Jeremy,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
To summarize your arguments: the intentionally malicious path to getting
the 0 sat output confirmed without being spent is uneconomical compared to
simply creating dust outputs. And even if it does happen, the tx spending
from the 0 sat output may still be valid (as long as none of its inputs get
spent elsewhere) and could eventually get confirmed.
I think those are good points. I do still see a possibility where a user
non-maliciously happens to behave in a way that causes all of the above to
happen, but it does seem somewhat unlikely.
It could happen if all of the following occurs:
1. Another output happens to get spent at a higher feerate (e.g. because an
absolute timelock expires and the output gets used)
2. The tx spending the 0 sat output then happens to not make it into the
block due to the lower fees
3. The user then happens to invalidate the tx that was spending from the 0
sat output (seems rational at that point)
Assuming this is the only scenario (I am at least not currently aware of
others), the question then becomes whether the above is acceptable in order
to avoid a soft fork.
Cheers,
Ruben
On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 6:41 PM Jeremy <jlrubin at mit.edu> wrote:
> IMO this is not a big problem. The problem is not if a 0 value ever enters
> the mempool, it's if it is never spent. And even if C2/P1 goes in, C1 still
> can be spent. In fact, it increases it's feerate with P1's confirmation so
> it's somewhat likely it would go in. C2 further has to be pretty expensive
> compared to C1 in order to be mined when C2 would not be, so the user
> trying to do this has to pay for it.
>
> If we're worried it might never be spent again since no incentive, it's
> rational for miners *and users who care about bloat* to save to disk the
> transaction spending it to resurrect it. The way this can be broken is if
> the txn has two inputs and that input gets spent separately.
>
> That said, I think if we can say that taking advantage of keeping the 0
> value output will cost you more than if you just made it above dust
> threshold, it shouldn't be economically rational to not just do a dust
> threshold value output instead.
>
> So I'm not sure the extent to which we should bend backwards to make 0
> value outputs impossible v.s. making them inconvenient enough to not be
> popular.
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------
> Consensus changes below:
> -------------------------------------
>
> Another possibility is to have a utxo with drop semantics; if UTXO X with
> some flag on it is not spent in the block it is created, it expires and can
> never be spent. This is essentially an inverse timelock, but severely
> limited to one block and mempool evictions can be handled as if a conflict
> were mined.
>
> These types of 0 value outputs could be present just for attaching fee in
> the mempool but be treated like an op_return otherwise. We could add two
> cases for this: one bare segwit version (just the number, no data) and one
> that's equivalent to taproot. This covers OP_TRUE anchors very efficiently
> and ones that require a signature as well.
>
> This is relatively similar to how Transaction Sponsors works, but without
> full tx graph de-linkage... obviously I think if we'll entertain a
> consensus change, sponsors makes more sense, but expiring utxos doesn't
> change as many properties of the tx-graph validation so might be simpler.
>
>
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/attachments/20211208/8f8b4e60/attachment.html>;
📝 Original message:
Hi Jeremy,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
To summarize your arguments: the intentionally malicious path to getting
the 0 sat output confirmed without being spent is uneconomical compared to
simply creating dust outputs. And even if it does happen, the tx spending
from the 0 sat output may still be valid (as long as none of its inputs get
spent elsewhere) and could eventually get confirmed.
I think those are good points. I do still see a possibility where a user
non-maliciously happens to behave in a way that causes all of the above to
happen, but it does seem somewhat unlikely.
It could happen if all of the following occurs:
1. Another output happens to get spent at a higher feerate (e.g. because an
absolute timelock expires and the output gets used)
2. The tx spending the 0 sat output then happens to not make it into the
block due to the lower fees
3. The user then happens to invalidate the tx that was spending from the 0
sat output (seems rational at that point)
Assuming this is the only scenario (I am at least not currently aware of
others), the question then becomes whether the above is acceptable in order
to avoid a soft fork.
Cheers,
Ruben
On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 6:41 PM Jeremy <jlrubin at mit.edu> wrote:
> IMO this is not a big problem. The problem is not if a 0 value ever enters
> the mempool, it's if it is never spent. And even if C2/P1 goes in, C1 still
> can be spent. In fact, it increases it's feerate with P1's confirmation so
> it's somewhat likely it would go in. C2 further has to be pretty expensive
> compared to C1 in order to be mined when C2 would not be, so the user
> trying to do this has to pay for it.
>
> If we're worried it might never be spent again since no incentive, it's
> rational for miners *and users who care about bloat* to save to disk the
> transaction spending it to resurrect it. The way this can be broken is if
> the txn has two inputs and that input gets spent separately.
>
> That said, I think if we can say that taking advantage of keeping the 0
> value output will cost you more than if you just made it above dust
> threshold, it shouldn't be economically rational to not just do a dust
> threshold value output instead.
>
> So I'm not sure the extent to which we should bend backwards to make 0
> value outputs impossible v.s. making them inconvenient enough to not be
> popular.
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------
> Consensus changes below:
> -------------------------------------
>
> Another possibility is to have a utxo with drop semantics; if UTXO X with
> some flag on it is not spent in the block it is created, it expires and can
> never be spent. This is essentially an inverse timelock, but severely
> limited to one block and mempool evictions can be handled as if a conflict
> were mined.
>
> These types of 0 value outputs could be present just for attaching fee in
> the mempool but be treated like an op_return otherwise. We could add two
> cases for this: one bare segwit version (just the number, no data) and one
> that's equivalent to taproot. This covers OP_TRUE anchors very efficiently
> and ones that require a signature as well.
>
> This is relatively similar to how Transaction Sponsors works, but without
> full tx graph de-linkage... obviously I think if we'll entertain a
> consensus change, sponsors makes more sense, but expiring utxos doesn't
> change as many properties of the tx-graph validation so might be simpler.
>
>
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/attachments/20211208/8f8b4e60/attachment.html>;