Jeff Garzik [ARCHIVE] on Nostr: š Original date posted:2015-05-07 š Original message:100% agree, RE hard forks ...
š
Original date posted:2015-05-07
š Original message:100% agree, RE hard forks should be hard.
However, it is the paradox of growth, morale and adoption that bitcoin
might never reach the point where it is saturated & expensive to the point
where larger blocks are demanded by 95%+... simply because people and
companies chose not to adopt bitcoin in the first place due to an unmoving,
[perceived | real] scalability roadblock.
On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 11:04 AM, Alex Morcos <morcos at gmail.com> wrote:
> That strikes me as a dangerous path forward.
>
> I don't actually think there is anything wrong with this: "everybody
> eventually gets tired of arguing angels-dancing-on-the-head-of-a-pin, and
> we're left with the status quo"
>
> What gives Bitcoin value aren't its technical merits but the fact that
> people believe in it. The biggest risk here isn't that 20MB blocks will
> be bad or that 1MB blocks will be bad, but that by forcing a hard fork that
> isn't nearly universally agreed upon, we will be damaging that belief. If
> I strongly believed some hard fork would be better for Bitcoin, say
> permanent inflation of 1% a year to fund mining, and I managed to convince
> 80% of users, miners, businesses and developers to go along with me, I
> would still vote against doing it. Because that's not nearly universal
> agreement, and it changes what people chose to believe in without their
> consent. Forks should be hard, very hard. And both sides should recognize
> that belief in the value of Bitcoin might be a fragile thing. I'd argue
> that if we didn't force through a 20MB fork now, and we ran into major
> network difficulties a year from now and had no other technical solutions,
> that maybe we would get nearly universal agreement, and the businesses and
> users that were driven away by the unusable system would be a short term
> loss in value considerably smaller than the impairment we risk by forcing a
> change.
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 10:52 AM, Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> For reference: the blog post that (re)-started this debate, and which
>> links to individual issues, is here:
>> http://gavinandresen.ninja/time-to-roll-out-bigger-blocks
>>
>> In it, I asked people to email me objections I might have missed. I would
>> still appreciate it if people do that; it is impossible to keep up with
>> this mailing list, /r/bitcoin posts and comments, and #bitcoin-wizards and
>> also have time to respond thoughtfully to the objections raised.
>>
>> I would very much like to find some concrete course of action that we can
>> come to consensus on. Some compromise so we can tell entrepreneurs "THIS is
>> how much transaction volume the main Bitcoin blockchain will be able to
>> support over the next eleven years."
>>
>> I've been pretty clear on what I think is a reasonable compromise (a
>> one-time increase scheduled for early next year), and I have tried to
>> explain why I think it it is the right set of tradeoffs.
>>
>> There ARE tradeoffs here, and the hard question is what process do we use
>> to decide those tradeoffs? How do we come to consensus? Is it worth my
>> time to spend hours responding thoughtfully to every new objection raised
>> here, or will the same thing happen that happened last year and the year
>> before-- everybody eventually gets tired of arguing
>> angels-dancing-on-the-head-of-a-pin, and we're left with the status quo?
>>
>> I AM considering contributing some version of the bigger blocksize-limit
>> hard-fork patch to the Bitcoin-Xt fork (probably "target a hobbyist with a
>> fast Internet connection, and assume Nelson's law to increase over time),
>> and then encouraging merchants and exchanges and web wallets and
>> individuals who think it strikes a reasonable balance to run it.
>>
>> And then, assuming it became a super-majority of nodes on the network,
>> encourage miners to roll out a soft-fork to start producing bigger blocks
>> and eventually trigger the hard fork.
>>
>> Because ultimately consensus comes down to what software people choose to
>> run.
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Gavin Andresen
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
>> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
>> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
>> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
>> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
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š Original message:100% agree, RE hard forks should be hard.
However, it is the paradox of growth, morale and adoption that bitcoin
might never reach the point where it is saturated & expensive to the point
where larger blocks are demanded by 95%+... simply because people and
companies chose not to adopt bitcoin in the first place due to an unmoving,
[perceived | real] scalability roadblock.
On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 11:04 AM, Alex Morcos <morcos at gmail.com> wrote:
> That strikes me as a dangerous path forward.
>
> I don't actually think there is anything wrong with this: "everybody
> eventually gets tired of arguing angels-dancing-on-the-head-of-a-pin, and
> we're left with the status quo"
>
> What gives Bitcoin value aren't its technical merits but the fact that
> people believe in it. The biggest risk here isn't that 20MB blocks will
> be bad or that 1MB blocks will be bad, but that by forcing a hard fork that
> isn't nearly universally agreed upon, we will be damaging that belief. If
> I strongly believed some hard fork would be better for Bitcoin, say
> permanent inflation of 1% a year to fund mining, and I managed to convince
> 80% of users, miners, businesses and developers to go along with me, I
> would still vote against doing it. Because that's not nearly universal
> agreement, and it changes what people chose to believe in without their
> consent. Forks should be hard, very hard. And both sides should recognize
> that belief in the value of Bitcoin might be a fragile thing. I'd argue
> that if we didn't force through a 20MB fork now, and we ran into major
> network difficulties a year from now and had no other technical solutions,
> that maybe we would get nearly universal agreement, and the businesses and
> users that were driven away by the unusable system would be a short term
> loss in value considerably smaller than the impairment we risk by forcing a
> change.
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 10:52 AM, Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> For reference: the blog post that (re)-started this debate, and which
>> links to individual issues, is here:
>> http://gavinandresen.ninja/time-to-roll-out-bigger-blocks
>>
>> In it, I asked people to email me objections I might have missed. I would
>> still appreciate it if people do that; it is impossible to keep up with
>> this mailing list, /r/bitcoin posts and comments, and #bitcoin-wizards and
>> also have time to respond thoughtfully to the objections raised.
>>
>> I would very much like to find some concrete course of action that we can
>> come to consensus on. Some compromise so we can tell entrepreneurs "THIS is
>> how much transaction volume the main Bitcoin blockchain will be able to
>> support over the next eleven years."
>>
>> I've been pretty clear on what I think is a reasonable compromise (a
>> one-time increase scheduled for early next year), and I have tried to
>> explain why I think it it is the right set of tradeoffs.
>>
>> There ARE tradeoffs here, and the hard question is what process do we use
>> to decide those tradeoffs? How do we come to consensus? Is it worth my
>> time to spend hours responding thoughtfully to every new objection raised
>> here, or will the same thing happen that happened last year and the year
>> before-- everybody eventually gets tired of arguing
>> angels-dancing-on-the-head-of-a-pin, and we're left with the status quo?
>>
>> I AM considering contributing some version of the bigger blocksize-limit
>> hard-fork patch to the Bitcoin-Xt fork (probably "target a hobbyist with a
>> fast Internet connection, and assume Nelson's law to increase over time),
>> and then encouraging merchants and exchanges and web wallets and
>> individuals who think it strikes a reasonable balance to run it.
>>
>> And then, assuming it became a super-majority of nodes on the network,
>> encourage miners to roll out a soft-fork to start producing bigger blocks
>> and eventually trigger the hard fork.
>>
>> Because ultimately consensus comes down to what software people choose to
>> run.
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Gavin Andresen
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
>> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
>> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
>> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
>> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
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