Conversation Details

📝 Summary: The proposal to extend BOLT-11 to include two bundled payments with distinct preimages and amounts is aimed at addressing prepayment of mining fees for non-custodian exchanges. However, there are concerns about the feasibility of adding a new feature to BOLT-11, and updating BOLT-12 may be a better option. The goal is to level the competition between Lightning service providers by allowing reverse submarine swap payments from any wallet. Optional prepayment is suggested, and Electrum plans to implement BOLT-12 support in the coming months.

👥 Authors: • Bastien TEINTURIER ( Bastien TEINTURIER [ARCHIVE] (npub17fj…tr0s) ) • Thomas Voegtlin ( Thomas Voegtlin [ARCHIVE] (npub10f9…ej47) ) • Matt Corallo ( Matt Corallo [ARCHIVE] (npub1e46…xmcu) ) • David A. Harding ( David A. Harding [ARCHIVE] (npub16dt…4wrd) ) • Steve Lee ( Steve Lee [ARCHIVE] (npub1rp7…xujr) ) • SomberNight ( SomberNight [ARCHIVE] (npub1r3w…8xs3) ) • Olaoluwa Osuntokun ( Olaoluwa Osuntokun [ARCHIVE] (npub19he…kvn4) )

📅 Messages Date Range: 2023-06-13 to 2023-06-20

✉️ Message Count: 13

📚 Total Characters in Messages: 90094

Messages Summaries

✉️ Message by Thomas Voegtlin on 13/06/2023: Proposal to extend BOLT-11 to include two bundled payments with distinct preimages and amounts to address prepayment of mining fees for non-custodian exchanges.

✉️ Message by Olaoluwa Osuntokun on 14/06/2023: An extension to BOLT-11 is proposed for invoices to contain two bundled payments with distinct preimages and amounts for non-custodial exchanges. This is useful for services that require prepayment of mining fees, such as submarine swaps and JIT channels. However, dedicated logic is still required for full verification of swap parameters and on-chain sweep/timeout, which is necessary for a trust-minimized swap.

✉️ Message by Thomas Voegtlin on 14/06/2023: A submarine swap client can be distributed separately from the user’s lightning wallet, enabling competition and increasing potential user base. However, dedicated logic is required for full verification and trust minimization. An extension to BOLT-11 is proposed for invoices with two bundled payments.

✉️ Message by Matt Corallo on 14/06/2023: Proposing an extension to BOLT-11 for bundled payments to address prepayment of mining fees for non-custodian exchanges. However, getting a new interoperable change into BOLT-11 seems unlikely.

✉️ Message by Thomas Voegtlin on 15/06/2023: Thomas Voegtlin proposes a new feature for BOLT-11 to allow for prepayment of fees using a different preimage, which could benefit Lightning Labs and ACINQ. The feature would be optional and could be made available during a transition period. Matt Corallo questions the feasibility of adding a new feature to BOLT-11 and suggests exploring splice-out and building on OMs for more privacy.

✉️ Message by Bastien TEINTURIER on 15/06/2023: The proposal to add a new feature to BOLT-11 requires senders to be aware of payment leading to channel creation on the receiver end. Extending Bolt 12 makes more sense than updating Bolt 11. There are three strategies to provide JIT liquidity, and the currently deployed strategies are 1) and 2). Solution 2) works fine as long as the mempool isn’t empty, but pre-paying fees would make more sense if 0-conf is not used anymore. It is more reasonable to include this new feature in Bolt 12 rather than Bolt 11.

✉️ Message by David A. Harding on 19/06/2023: Thomas Voegtlin explains the semantics of bundled payments, which involves a BOLT-11 invoice containing two preimages and two amounts.

✉️ Message by Thomas Voegtlin on 20/06/2023: Thomas suggests adding a feature bit to the invoice to make prepayment optional or required, and subtracting the prepayment amount from the main payment amount.

✉️ Message by Thomas Voegtlin on 20/06/2023: Thomas proposes leveling the competition between Lightning service providers by allowing reverse submarine swap payments from any wallet. He suggests pre-payment of mining fees can be combined with 0-conf. Updating Bolt 12 makes more sense than updating Bolt 11.

✉️ Message by Matt Corallo on 20/06/2023: Electrum plans to implement BOLT-12 support in the coming months, but it may take years for it to become the dominant payment method on Lightning. A new BOLT-11 extension would have to start from scratch, while BOLT-12 offers are reusable. The goal of the proposal is to level the field of competition between Lightning service providers by allowing reverse submarine swap payments to come from any wallet. However, it only makes sense if the user has an on-chain wallet they want to use, which is distinct from their lightning wallet.

✉️ Message by Steve Lee on 20/06/2023: Electrum plans to implement BOLT-12 support in the coming months, but the author believes it may take years for it to become the dominant payment method on Lightning.

✉️ Message by SomberNight on 20/06/2023: A proposal for Lightning Network payments involves potentially three entities, including a swap service provider, and requires updates to existing software used by senders. A submarine swap scenario is used as an example.

✉️ Message by Bastien TEINTURIER on 20/06/2023: Bastien argues for a prepayment solution based on Bolt 12 for Lightning service providers, but Thomas questions the need to rush and suggests a feature bit for optional prepayment.

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